{
"post": {
"title": "Attack Skill Damage Effectiveness Comparison",
"selftext": "This is a quick and dirty comparison of the damage effectiveness of skills before and after the 3.25 patch notes. There may be some mistakes (I just used some quick regexes to parse the data). There is also a column indicating whether old added flat damage on the skill was removed.\n\nThe column `buff_ratio` is simply the ratio of the new effectiveness to the old one. I've sorted the table by putting the skills with the largest buffs at the top.\n\nEDIT: added vaal skills\n\nEDIT: fixed lightning strike for updated values\n\n old new flat_removed buff_ratio\n skill \n Pestilent Strike 160% 472% True 2.950000\n Double Strike 140% 409% True 2.921429\n Double Strike of Impaling 140% 409% False 2.921429\n Lacerate of Haemorrhage 120% 346% True 2.883333\n Perforate of Bloodshed 85% 245% True 2.882353\n Frenzy of Onslaught 135% 353% False 2.614815\n Lacerate 154% 393% True 2.551948\n Viper Strike of the Mamba 154% 392% True 2.545455\n Viper Strike 154% 392% True 2.545455\n Sweep 281% 664% True 2.362989\n Perforate of Duality 265% 622% True 2.347170\n Perforate 265% 622% True 2.347170\n Chain Hook 169% 393% False 2.325444\n Glacial Hammer of Shattering 269% 622% True 2.312268\n Glacial Hammer 269% 622% True 2.312268\n Infernal Blow of Immolation 166% 377% True 2.271084\n Infernal Blow 166% 377% True 2.271084\n Blade Flurry 49% 111% True 2.265306\n Boneshatter of Carnage 275% 620% False 2.254545\n Charged Dash 121% 264% False 2.181818\n Cleave 237% 511% True 2.156118\n Reave of Refraction 250% 534% False 2.136000\n Reave 250% 534% False 2.136000\n Vigilant Strike 350% 745% False 2.128571\n Leap Slam 150% 314% False 2.093333\n Whirling Blades 150% 314% False 2.093333\n Earthshatter of Fragility 150% 314% False 2.093333\n Double Strike of Momentum 95% 196% False 2.063158\n Leap Slam of Groundbreaking 320% 660% False 2.062500\n Earthshatter of Prominence 170% 346% False 2.035294\n Lacerate of Butchering 310% 629% False 2.029032\n Lightning Strike 225% 456% True 2.026667\n Ground Slam of Earthshaking 340% 688% False 2.023529\n Blade Flurry of Incision 49% 99% True 2.020408\n Sunder of Earthbreaking 250% 503% False 2.012000\n Tectonic Slam 275% 542% False 1.970909\n Tectonic Slam of Cataclysm 240% 472% False 1.966667\n Earthshatter 200% 393% False 1.965000\n Flicker Strike of Power 210% 408% False 1.942857\n Flicker Strike 210% 408% False 1.942857\n Bladestorm 150% 291% False 1.940000\n Sunder 325% 629% False 1.935385\n Bladestorm of Uncertainty 180% 347% False 1.927778\n Dominating Blow of Inspiring 238% 458% False 1.924370\n Dominating Blow 238% 458% False 1.924370\n Ground Slam 188% 356% False 1.893617\n Lightning Strike of Arcing 200% 377% True 1.885000\n Cyclone of Tumult 59% 111% True 1.881356\n Cyclone 59% 111% True 1.881356\n Volcanic Fissure 185% 344% False 1.859459\n Static Strike 188% 346% False 1.840426\n Molten Strike of the Zenith 130% 239% False 1.838462\n Ice Crash of Cadence 250% 458% False 1.832000\n Frost Blades of Katabasis 225% 409% False 1.817778\n Frost Blades 225% 409% True 1.817778\n Consecrated Path 230% 417% False 1.813043\n Dual Strike 244% 442% False 1.811475\n Smite 273% 488% False 1.787546\n Molten Strike 185% 329% True 1.778378\n Heavy Strike 313% 552% False 1.763578\n Ice Crash 350% 611% False 1.745714\n Wild Strike 231% 403% False 1.744589\n Volcanic Fissure of Snaking 185% 318% False 1.718919\n Cleave of Rage 300% 511% False 1.703333\n Consecrated Path of Endurance 180% 305% False 1.694444\n Shattering Steel 159% 265% True 1.666667\n Shattering Steel of Ammunition 159% 265% True 1.666667\n Lancing Steel 106% 175% True 1.650943\n Cobra Lash 125% 205% True 1.640000\n Lancing Steel of Spraying 220% 360% True 1.636364\n Splitting Steel of Ammunition 210% 330% True 1.571429\n Splitting Steel 210% 330% True 1.571429\n Earthquake of Amplification 150% 229% False 1.526667\n Earthquake 150% 229% False 1.526667\n Infernal Cry 158% 234% False 1.481013\n Smite of Divine Judgement 250% 369% False 1.476000\n Dual Strike of Ambidexterity 244% 360% False 1.475410\n Wild Strike of Extremes 240% 328% False 1.366667\n Frozen Legion of Rallying 135% 184% False 1.362963\n Boneshatter 250% 338% False 1.352000\n Boneshatter of Complex Trauma 250% 338% True 1.352000\n Scourge Arrow of Menace 40% 52% True 1.300000\n Caustic Arrow of Poison 70% 91% True 1.300000\n Scourge Arrow 125% 162% True 1.296000\n Kinetic Bolt 175% 220% False 1.257143\n Puncture 165% 205% True 1.242424\n Kinetic Bolt of Fragmentation 70% 85% False 1.214286\n Spectral Throw of Materialising 280% 340% False 1.214286\n Shrapnel Ballista 44% 53% True 1.204545\n Toxic Rain of Sporeburst 85% 102% True 1.200000\n Spectral Throw 125% 150% False 1.200000\n Spectral Helix 150% 180% False 1.200000\n Split Arrow 119% 142% True 1.193277\n Shrapnel Ballista of Steel 58% 69% True 1.189655\n Frozen Legion 281% 332% False 1.181495\n Lightning Arrow of Electrocution 75% 87% True 1.160000\n Ice Shot 174% 200% True 1.149425\n Lightning Arrow 154% 177% True 1.149351\n Galvanic Arrow of Energy 210% 241% True 1.147619\n Galvanic Arrow of Surging 99% 113% True 1.141414\n Galvanic Arrow 99% 113% True 1.141414\n Rage Vortex 62% 70% False 1.129032\n Rage Vortex of Berserking 62% 70% False 1.129032\n \n old new flat_removed buff_ratio\n skill \n Vaal Double Strike 41% 101% True 2.463415\n Vaal Glacial Hammer 250% 552% True 2.208000\n Vaal Blade Flurry 343% 690% True 2.011662\n Vaal Cleave 400% 726% True 1.815000\n Vaal Molten Strike 110% 199% True 1.809091\n Vaal Reave 350% 613% False 1.751429\n Vaal Smite 430% 753% False 1.751163\n Vaal Flicker Strike 210% 362% False 1.723810\n Vaal Cyclone 109% 184% True 1.688073\n Vaal Earthquake 106% 172% False 1.622642\n Vaal Volcanic Fissure 220% 352% False 1.600000\n Vaal Lightning Strike 163% 237% True 1.453988\n Vaal Burning Arrow 400% 560% True 1.400000\n Vaal Ground Slam 375% 522% False 1.392000\n Vaal Spectral Throw 110% 135% False 1.227273\n Vaal Venom Gyre 165% 200% False 1.212121\n Vaal Lightning Arrow 78% 90% True 1.153846\n Vaal Ice Shot 87% 100% True 1.149425",
"url": "https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/1e6qywp/attack_skill_damage_effectiveness_comparison/"
},
"comments": [
{
"body": "Did someone say flicker strike?",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Let Kitava take the wheel"
},
{
"body": "not only it got a huge damage buff, they also reduced mana cost from 10 to 8 at lvl 20. \n\nI think it's the only melee skill that got buffed while it got mana cost reduced instead of increased"
},
{
"body": "absolutely"
},
{
"body": "we'll be zoomin', brother"
},
{
"body": "Since multistrike doesn't support travel skills now, doesn't that kind of brick most flicker builds? There are still ways to get charges on every hit but it's going to be a lot harder to stack them up an maintain them.\n\n\nNever-ending, mixing up movement and travel tags.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Flicker has a movement tag travel is a different tag flicker is safe",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Yeah I just realized that. Ice bite raider would have loved that damage effectiveness.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Won't matter for raiders any ways 😅"
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "You scared the shit out of me for a second there"
}
]
},
{
"body": "i mean we have lost so much attack speed from rage and totems being removed that i think flicker will have less damage now overall the also nerfed berserk",
"replies": [
{
"body": "I never played flicker with rage so doesn't matter to me. Im pretty sure totems were only used in longer boss fights which made the bosses take from 10 seconds to 5 seconds max"
},
{
"body": "I feel like we are going to see some pretty powerful rage generation options via tree or items. Heck, they alluded to it already in the patch notes, and we've seen some of the passive rage mastery options indicate some fast rage generation.\n\nFlicker didn't rely too much on totems anyway, for obvious reasons. Boss fights have never really been the strong suit for flicker either. \n\nI was kinda hoping to see Flicker get unchained from Replica Farruls, the way they've done away with Redblade Banner and instant rage generation. Oh well, still looks like Flicker is going to be my 2nd character in the league. First character is likely going to be some form of bleedsplosion gladiator.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Rage no longer has inherent attack speed."
},
{
"body": "Penance mark is back via a ring. Sustaining frenzy on bosses should be easier than ever with that. You damage the boss, it spawns some stuff for you to hit/kill to get more frenzy charges. Etc. End game, this probably won't matter. But early maps, it could probably make it possible to use any weapon and still generate charges. It really depends on how rare those rings are I would imagine. I imagine the enrage buff + ice wolf bite could generate enough charges now to mostly be good against early map bosses."
}
]
},
{
"body": "Can you explain to me how are you planning to flicker within range of totems?",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Bosses would be the case for that, but yeah nobody sane plays flicker for bossing",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Usually we just gem swap to frenzy and rely on raw dps lol.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Speak for yourself. I would drop the totems and then let Jesus take the wheel."
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "Essences and bosses also range on totems is Pretty large or was i guess. Too the crack head who said gem swap i hope you stub your toe on league start if your flicker your flicker aint no gem swapping.\n\nsmall side note by the time you are bossing bossing on flicker flicker its self should be doing 50+million dps flicker is a single target monster or was before we lost 5 attacks per second"
},
{
"body": "Also after you have as much time in flicker as me you kinda get a feel for where its going and how to control it"
}
]
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "With the removal of Physical added damage from Cyclone, now my Energy Blade Inquisitor is 100% immune to Phys Reflect maps. GET REKT",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Cyclone seems the looser :-/ not sure why ggg hates it so much.\n\nThe added flat dmg was huge",
"replies": [
{
"body": "cyclone is only worse now if your weapon had less than like 100 max damage. like, a white exquisite blade is doing slightly more damage on average now.\n\nthis would MAYBE impact leveling SLIGHTLY if you don't ever use a magic or better weapon.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Yeah and once you get a good weapon, your damage goes Up crazy, thats a buff!"
}
]
},
{
"body": "Try to calc sometimes",
"replies": [
{
"body": "uhm i'm new to the chat. what does calc mean?",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Calculate"
},
{
"body": "It's slang for Calculator."
},
{
"body": "Calculate. It's definitely a buff."
},
{
"body": "Calc does not mean Calcium"
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "Math is hard on this guy"
},
{
"body": "This is a massive buff. No one cares about the added flat anyway unless you were fire damage str stacking, which got monstrously nerfed anyway. The chaos version was also far more popular that didn’t really benefit from the bit of added phys. The fire had phys to fire but few people play it.\n\nIf you are pure phys or impale or something, you just got buffed.",
"replies": [
{
"body": ">which got monstrously nerfed anyway\n\nWell, I wouldn't say monstrously, Crown of Eyes and more investment into accuracy and crit is needed but str stackers will still be obnoxiously strong when you've sunk some currency into it.\n\nOther than that I fully agree with everything.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "You can’t do OS with blizzard crown anymore, which was what made it giga crazy. It’s still a decent build, but far from OP.",
"replies": [
{
"body": ">You can’t do OS with blizzard crown anymore\n\nWait, what? Why not?",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Cuz you need a unique helmet for str stacker now. Battlemages cry got reworked so you need to get spell damage added to attacks via helmet slot."
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "str stack kinetic blast ps / or kinetic bolt i guess. + wand now has greater as"
}
]
},
{
"body": "> No one cares about the added flat anyway\n\nI think it's going to be a hard reality check for some melee players early on, the added flat damage on these skills (and chance to bleed) were a massive bonus in the campaign on a leaguestart. \n\nSure they are miniscule later when you put that 1100pdps axe on to swing with the massively buffed damage effectiveness but it's not gonna be a smoot sailing on leaguestart for a lot of builds.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "quality on weapons is supposed to compensate that"
},
{
"body": "with the quality rework giving 20% quality to low level items for 1 whetstone and being multiplicative giving 20% more damage instead it should be totally fine"
},
{
"body": "They're making it so it makes more sense to quality your gear early on, and quality is now a multiplicative thing instead of an additive thing. Weapons will have more damage across the board, and all melee skills have much improved base and added damage effectiveness. There's no way they will be doing less damage in the campaign."
}
]
}
]
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "My only question is how could you compare the ones that lost the flat DMG to the others that never had it, as I could then see stuff like Reave climbing a few places.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "This depends on if you were using 1H + shield, dual wield, or 2H beforehand. In general, 2H builds don't care as much about the loss of flat DMG.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Worth noting Berserker got quite a bit better with the flawless savagery node. Many melee skills losing their innate flat and gaining big damage effectiveness makes the node at least decent now, and in fact quite good for campaign. It'll stay decent too if you choose to do a 1H+Shield or dual wield build.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "master of metal as well. pure phys is looking nice this league.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "I was thinking of trying rage double strike of impaling champ. Possibly with Abyssos and/or paradoxica.\n\nI know strike skills are sucky but I want to try weird stuff.\n\nOn a sidenote, trauma support ends up buffed despite the gem being nerfed. Flat phys more valuable with most skills.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Dual strike of ambidexterity and boneshatter are strike skills and probably two of the best melee skills in the game over last few leagues. Strike skills should see some use this league :)"
},
{
"body": "Strike skills can be really fun to play! In recent leagues you can get strike skills strike extra enemies and strike skills do splash damage easier than ever before.\n\nI'm instantly drawn to dual wield, Double Strike of Momentum Gladiator. More than skill path gives excellent block and attack speed from doubling the dual wield buff. Gratuitous Violence was already great for clearing and is now even stronger, and the fourth point really depends on retaliation skills being as strong as advertised as off handing Varunastra is looking like an awesome early game boost with Weapon Master, will run with this until retaliation skills prove themselves."
},
{
"body": "One of my favourite builds was a glacial hammer build. Strikes struggled with buttons and hassle not with potential."
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "Also despite champ getting nerfed, the impale node getting buffed in comparison.\n\nI'm just wondering how the quality changes will affect Paradoxica? It'll probably only boost local weapon damage?"
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "I just did a quick and dirty comparison in Excel for Lacerate. With a 400dps weapon, the old (current) skill gives you 760.76dps, the new skill with removed flat phys gives you 1572. I imagine that's true across the board, so big buffs in mid to late game.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Does this include 20 or 30% more dmg from weapon quant? ",
"replies": [
{
"body": "He mentioned the DPS of the wep, so whether there is qual or not doesnt matter.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "It does, since Qual got changed to a more multiplier.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Yes, but that doesn't factor in here because he isn't calculating the dps of a weapon, he threw out a dps number. Yeah qual being multiplicative means a 400dps weapon is easier to get, but does nothing to the math here. That 400dps is an imaginary number used as an example."
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "It does not"
},
{
"body": "Warchief totem, ancestral totem and panopticon were roughly easy 30% more dmg for most builds. We won't need to cast it anymore but I think I will miss the more speed multiplier from ancestral totems!"
}
]
},
{
"body": "Just as importantly, this changes the importance of sources of flat damage added on items and skills. I haven't seen a lot of people talking about this, but even Hatred has been changed to be all-in on cold conversion from physical damage.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "It isn't cold conversion, it's added phys as cold.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "which benefits cold conversion builds significantly more than phys builds. it isn't technically cold conversion, but will only be used with cold conversion",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Well said. Put another way, every point of added phys damage on a level 20 hatred means ~1.4 points of added cold damage. As we are well aware in POE, multiplicative scaling is one of the best ways to reach viability for any given build."
}
]
}
]
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "You can't easily compare them because the flat is additive with other sources of flat dmg.\n\nOnly way to do a comparison like that is to plug the numbers into existing PoB's."
}
]
},
{
"body": "Nice. Maybe throw the vaal skills in there too?",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Just added the vaal skills.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "ty"
}
]
},
{
"body": "I can add vaal skills when I'm back at my computer in a couple hours"
}
]
},
{
"body": "flat removed should be \"–\" if the skill hadn't it at the first place",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Dunno why you were downvoted. It's very unhelpful, in terms of assessing changes, to imply flat was removed when it never had any flat to remove...."
}
]
},
{
"body": "It is finally time\n\nhttps://www.reddit.com/r/PathOfExileBuilds/comments/10cvztj/self_chill_pestilent_strike_pathfinder/ // https://pobb.in/XkgSg8Lj",
"replies": [
{
"body": "I don't know if its worth it but you can do what Viper strike of the Mamba does with All damage can poison Tincture, then just get huge added damage Claws.\n\nI love Pestilent Strike but I probably will be playing Mamba since I've ran with it once and it fits the defense profile I want\n\nYour build did get me thinking though\n\nhttps://pobb.in/yU2vyL5n-C5I"
}
]
},
{
"body": "Now that flat damage from gem levels is removed and skill effect modifiers gone to the moon, isn't that a buff to champion impale? There's a lot of flat damage on the ascendancy, even more than the Berserker. \n\nThough it looks like energy blade and other similar high flat damage shenanigans might work even better.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Trauma will be ridiculous on some builds, now how to maintain it on non-jugg...",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Would slayer leech work? Or even Vaal Pact?"
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "You've saved me hours, thank you"
},
{
"body": "I miss facebreaker cyclone being a free starter build. Only a memory now that there's no free flat damage.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Facebreaker got dumpstered sadly. No ancestral totem buffs, GGG didn't buff flat damage on things like steel rings, buff to weapons with item quality is irrelevant to facebreaker, and many skills losing flat damage further kills facebreaker especially early on.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "I disagree completely. Facebreaker is definitely not a good starter anymore but Kalandra jewellery is back... So we can get HUGE flat phys on jewellery slots and all melee skills got insane damage effectiveness buffs.\n\nTop end of Facebreaker builds should be much higher than in recent leagues.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Does the kalandra mirror thing affect implicits?",
"replies": [
{
"body": "no"
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "Facebreaker only lost cyclone as a skill with flat damage. Every other unarmed skill had no flat damage to begin with. \n\nFacebreaker sunder totems went from 2.5m to 5.5m DPS for instance, with the caveat that you need the boots. You ARE pigeonholed into champion, but you kind of already were."
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "Oooh boy I'm excited to whip out the double strike this league. Probably gonna go slayer actually since glad isn't great for non-bleed. \n\nIt really stands out here, with the base, \"of impaling\", and the vaal skill all massively buffed. Should be more than enough to compensate for totems - and that's 100% uptime damage, as opposed to just when you drop the totems.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "I mean, why not go champion? At least for early game it makes the most sense until you can flame/flesh master of metal. 9 flat phys per impale is 63 flat physical, which is essentially 2 well rolled steel rings."
},
{
"body": "> Probably gonna go slayer actually since glad isn't great for non-bleed. \n\nI think gladiator is significantly more attractive than before but not for 2h. Versatile Combatant keystone is no longer trash tier and the block node is good for both shields and dual wield, makes investing in block very reasonable. Use a shield with really garbage block chance but other utility and it gets replaced with 50%, or DW giving +40% block / +20% more attack speed. Makes dual 65% block very reasonable to get.\n\nBleed explosions are good for any attack build with phys damage. If you for example have 25% chance to bleed from random sources, it's already very reliable for helping you obliterate packs. A significant number of non-bleed builds were using Haemophilia, and Gladiator's version is stronger.\n\nI personally don't like retaliation or lucky blocks that much, but after those 2 core picks you've still got 3 useful picks between War of Attrition, Weapon Master and More than Skill. I think honestly the strongest use of Weapon Master is with Dual Strike of Ambidexterity with a claw in offhand. A lot of the Ambi builds were already using claw offhands and now you get instant leech.\n\nEdit: Looking at the possible unique shields to take advantage of the block chance replacement and happened to notice that in general [[Mahuxotl's Machination]] got giga buffed for melee builds. The changed Vaal Pact is so much better and the funny thing about Immortal Ambition is that instant life leech works with it.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "So, that 40% block chance from dw as a baseline is actually more like a 64% effective block chance with lucky. 64% block chance with zero tree/gear investment is nuts. At 65% block chance, it's 88% effective block chance. The more you invest in block, the worse the lucky becomes. But just baseline 64% effective block is nuts. At 79(max block now, I think), the effective block chance is actually 96% block chance. You can treat the luck as if it just adds 24-17 chance to your block based off your current block chance. I'd take 24-17 block over aggravated bleeds every day of the week.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "> The more you invest in block, the worse the lucky becomes\n\nI'd argue against this point. On average, %block is the same as %damage reduction, and we all know from resists that each point is better than the last one.\n\nGoing from 65% -> 88% is 65% less damage going through.\n\nGoing from 79% -> 96% is 81% less damage going through.\n\nSo even though the first one is 23 percentage points, it's less effective than the second one's 17 percentage points.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "This is true. But does that work for an all or nothing stat? Damage reduction is 65% reduction 100% of the time. But block is a 100% reduction 65% of the time. Let's say you have 10 attacks that each do 10k damage and you have 5k hp. You're dead from missing one block. If you increase that to 88% you're still dead from missing one block. But with damage reduction, you're going from 3500 per attack to 1200 per attack. Blocking you're getting 0% more often. But you still take full damage. That's why I would argue it's less effective as you take more.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "For sure, block is not a HC-viable defense against one-shots. But against ENOUGH hits, it does average out, since 100% * 65% is the same as 65% * 100%.\n\nBasically, making block lucky makes it better at what it's supposed to be doing, stopping multiple hits in a row. There's a point where that's overkill depending on things like recovery on block mechanics, but it's always going to be stronger. The tradeoff is just finding when it's \"strong enough\" that you should invest in other stuff.\n\nFor those one-shots you either need to be stacking other layers of defense e.g. armour and elemental damage reduction or just getting way better at dodging."
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "The problem with the lucky node is that it's only active for 4 seconds after you've already blocked once. It's pretty good value for repeated hits but I don't like it falling off quickly and then having 65% chance per hit to come online and not doing anything for the first hit at all. (Assuming the Versatile Combatant)",
"replies": [
{
"body": "That is true. At the very least, while mapping, there is no chance you will ever not have blocked in the last 4 seconds. Now, actual bosses could be a problem. But it could be useful if you fail a dodge and then get hit twice or something."
}
]
}
]
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "so big question for me is, in the reveal video Mark mentioned that most melee skills are dealing ~75% more damage at level 20. looking at the chart though, it looks like a great deal of skills are dealing way more than that, all the way up to 195% more damage.\n\nwas he just mistaken maybe? or are these numbers out of date?",
"replies": [
{
"body": "he might have been comparing to the old skills + ancestral totems"
},
{
"body": "The buffs are overcompensating for the loss of support."
}
]
},
{
"body": "Please add the new lightning strike values. The values were updated since this post."
},
{
"body": "Missing Doryani's Touch. Easy to calc, so not a big deal, but just thought I'd mention it."
},
{
"body": "no shield crush?",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Shield crush got a base damage buff, but the damage effectiveness is the same as before, so it wasn't picked up by my script."
}
]
},
{
"body": "I will start as Duelist, rush to Tribal Fury and then let my Double Strike build sort itself out.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "I played double strike of impaling in affliction league was doing around 20m dmg I think I can take it way further this league it got sooo buffed",
"replies": [
{
"body": "I'm thinking about double strike of momentum. Link it with trauma support, get some armor and endurance charges to ensure 90% mitigation, go with slayer, get new vaal pact to instantly heal trauma damage and go to town with very large trauma numbers, because it's the fastest-hitting strike skill.\n\nOne thing that is missing for me so far is how to get non-instant leech from non-melee damage. Would be easy with skills like frost blades or molten strike, but with double strike gotta get creative. This far I'm considering cwdt+desecrate+dd+life leech support. Not as a real damage source, but just for life leech. Not even sure whether it works with corpse explosions though.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Isn’t there a flask mod you can get that gives you leech?",
"replies": [
{
"body": "There is and it's great. Didn't know about it, thanks a lot! This craft solves the issue. Feels like a finding a missing piece of a puzzle under the table and fitting it in.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Haha yea, I’m not entirely sure on the numbers but you may find trauma stacks with momentum to be difficult to manage definitely worth testing. I know you have instant leech but you might end up 1 hitting yourself once you get a certain amount of trauma"
},
{
"body": "You can only bring phys mitigation down so far and as the hits get bigger your armour does nothing. You’ll need a lot of endurance charges and phys to ele. Arctic armour is huge on trauma builds too",
"replies": [
{
"body": "I'm not sure whether I'll even get there, but so far I'm aiming at \\~100k armor and 7 frenzy and ed charges via Slayer, plus probably Watcher's Eye for extra reduction. It should reduce damage by 90% at 70-80 trauma. I think about going full ev gear with Iron Reflexes. Iron reflexes just looks much much easier to scale on the tree.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Let’s you get easy spell suppression cap with the evasion mastery too"
}
]
}
]
}
]
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "Did you run this as a crit build too or just focus on impale scaling?",
"replies": [
{
"body": "I'm not him, but I highly doubt that 20m on that skill is achievable in 3.23 without crit."
},
{
"body": "Umm I was running trauma with 2h axe and precise technique, I switched to crit quite late in the league but the damage didn’t get too much higher considering the investment to make crit work for axes lol",
"replies": [
{
"body": "This time I’m not gonna run trauma and use crit swords and scale the impale effect. Will probably use ashes for way more impale effect"
}
]
}
]
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "Something worth considering regarding how much of a multiplier totem buffs were: Using Ancestral Protector + Warchief increased melee dps by 41.6%, improved to 65.1% when adding Panopticon as well. Going to say any melee attack that got base damage buffed by less than 41.6% got nerfed overall, though for that middle bracket between using and not using Panopticon depends on what can be taken instead for passive points/anoint.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "> Using Ancestral Protector + Warchief increased melee dps by 41.6%, improved to 65.1% when adding Panopticon as well. Going to say any melee attack that got base damage buffed by less than 41.6% got nerfed overall\n\nI'm not sure that's the right way to look at it. Totems were always PoB damage more than they were actual damage. You had to stop what you were doing and place them meaning your windows for hitting stuff on melee builds, already small, were partly filled by dropping totems. They also died all the fucking time. There may be a few perfect players in this thread but I can tell you I did not have 100% uptime on my totems. I didn't always notice when my totems were dead and even if I did notice I couldn't always instantly resummon them. This patch has buffed most melee skills in practice. I'm pretty sure of that. Even a skill like Boneshatter, the melee skill that relied on totems more than any other melee build in the game, was buffed IMO. Your PoB will say you do less damage now but the reality is PoB boneshatter PoB damage was inflated before. You didn't actually spend that much time at max trauma stacks. So, yeah, in the perfect scenario where you were able to sit still and generate trauma and never stop hitting you'll do less damage now, fairly significantly so, but in practice I think most fights are going to feel better. I can't tell you exactly how much damage you're losing from totems but I can say pretty confidently that in practice its not 41.6% on your average melee build.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Its the classic 100% damage uptime of 1 million dps is gonna feel WAY better compared to 3 million dps with 33% uptime. Main reason why dots are so nice",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Right."
}
]
},
{
"body": "I got my numbers by multiplying the totem buffs together, and you're correct about the PoB damage. Totems tend to die fast without any investment into durability. The QoL buff of not having to juggle totems is worth an indeterminate amount of damage.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "It's also worth an indeterminate amount of one of the strongest defensive layers in the game - movement. Melee, in most cases, requires you to be standing still. That's a given. But this weakness was exacerbated by having to drop totems prior to actually attacking. The Maven and Eater fights are great examples - your DPS uptime is severely hampered by the nature of those fights. Dropping totems in an area where they wouldn't immediately die also meant non-optimal positioning.\n\nIn any case, good riddance to a poor mechanic propped up by sheer necessity."
}
]
},
{
"body": "It almost feels like boneshatter was the one skill that was good already, so that is the baseline (removed totems, added damage to compensate). As you said, 41.6% was unrealistic, probably the actual/avg was more akin to \\~\"1.352\" which is the buff they gave it. Meaning, on average, anything above 1.352 is the general increase in damage you will feel vs 3.24, unless im mistaken."
}
]
},
{
"body": "It is a lot more important to make melee not cancerous to play, than to give it more power.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Melee had 1 problem that was exacerbated by totems.\n\n\nGood damage uptime.\n\n\nHaving to reposition all the time makes melee feel like shit. They removed 1 symptom, but the problem is still there. Fights are not designed around melee at all. The bigger damage will help, but dps uptime is still going to be lower than ranged.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "A bit, but ele DMG reduction from end charges, much easier block capping, and OG Vaal Pact (kinda) should actually go a long way to helping uptime because you'll just be able to tank more without moving than you could before. Still not necessarily the same as ranged but I think it will help a good bit.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Vaal pact is going to be awful. \n\n\n0 ways to recover life unless you are attacking. There will be builds that use it, but they are going to be very specialized in order to get around that giant downside."
}
]
},
{
"body": "At least now they understand that melee should have the highest damage in the game. I'm not sure why it took them so long to figure out something that's so self-evident. But their policy going forward is to make melee always stronger than other choices, exactly because it has more downtime, more danger, etc. They can't make melee more reliable on damage up time, so the best choice is to make melee stronger to compensate. Just have to find the correct balance. Too much and melee rules, too little and it's still never played."
}
]
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "Elemental hit(melee one) where? \n it is 55% more damage buff",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Like shield crush, it got a base damage buff but not an effectiveness buff, so it's not on the table."
}
]
},
{
"body": "Great work, nice way to view the changes."
},
{
"body": "Double Strike of Impaling is just a straight-up better than the normal version now because they have the same multiplier while the normal version lose its added damage",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Double strike still has 25% chance to bleed (meh), but more importantly, 20% double damage vs bleeding enemies from quality. So I think the base gem is still better for anything except impale.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "isn't impale (after fully stacking it) the same as having 100% double damage (or more if you go above the default max stacks)? Granted it's only for phys damage, but still",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Base impale damage is 50% more. If you take the +1 impale hits on the tree they added, and only have quality from the double strike gem for impale effect, it's 84% more. With the additional 48% effect from tree, it's 112.8% more."
},
{
"body": "Impale baseline is a chance to do 10% of the damage 5 more times, so 50% more damage at 100% impale chance.\n\nIf you get something like +1 hit for impale and 100% impale effect that 50% more becomes 120% more."
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "I think it might be a typo honestly, it also says Double Strike of Impaling has 104% added damage at gem level 1 now compared to normal Double Strike having 143% at gem level 1. Just seems weird for it to have such a different scaling. Of course it could be the level 1 values that are incorrect but that seems less plausible imo."
}
]
},
{
"body": "[deleted]",
"replies": [
{
"body": "That's only a ratio of the new effectiveness vs the old. LA and IS both gained 14% more added effectiveness, and lost 150+ in flat damage.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Doesn't seem like a buff to me, that's alot of added flat",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Buff on the high end, nerf on the low end. It'll probably suck during acts, but won't be majorly noticeable in the endgame."
}
]
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "Any good chain hook builds in the oven?"
},
{
"body": "One with nothing dex stack cyclone? oG delirium league where you at!?"
},
{
"body": "I dont understand how this effects cobra lash, it needed that flat damage?"
},
{
"body": " Lacerate of Haemorrhage 120% 346% True 2.883333\n \n Already adapting Lacerman's 3.15 build in the beta of path of building. It's going to be an epic league frens!"
},
{
"body": "Edit lightning strike plz. They buffed it. "
},
{
"body": "I know this might not give any usable info.\nBut can anyone tell me which one now just does msot damage with nothing but the needed weapon and level 1?"
},
{
"body": "I made a comma separated version [here](https://pastebin.com/aAMd7j7U) for anyone that wants to play with these numbers in excel for quick searching or comparison or whatever. It'd be helpful if we could indicate how much flat was lost but it'd be a pain to go grab all of those numbers individually form wiki or something, and probably not worth scripting."
},
{
"body": "Awesome list but I think if we want to know the actual 'buff ratio' we have to factor in the base attack speed, no? I'm looking at the notes and realizing I'm not fully understanding the impact of all these changes because of all the factors involved.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "If the attack speed didnt change (which it did not for almost all of them) it doesnt matter. The buff ratio doesnt care about the attack speed.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Losing both totems would lower their attack speed for sure",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Assuming you used both totems and panopticon, you lost a combined 64% multiplier for purely melee skills."
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "Did any of their base attack speeds actually change? That's the only time we would need to take it into account.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "The base attack speeds should feel faster because the old animation was …one-two, and they said they adjusted that. But with removal of raider attack speed, rage attack speed, berserk, and ancestral protector I think it will end up feeling a lot slower than your average Mathil build with moderate investment. \n\nI’m sure there will be ways around it (e.g. self-chill, etc.) but that responsiveness you get from late game melee with overwhelming attack speed will probably take a bit more. \n\nI was pondering some melee, but I think the best would be to go movement skill (was looking at elementalist whirling blades ignite with perfect agony or gladiator shield charge bleed or chieftain consecrated path ignite with perfect agony), general’s cry, or some form of a slam. \n\nI may be overly cautious here, but with the removal of flat damage from the skills you want higher damage which limits unique choices with better attack speed early."
}
]
},
{
"body": "I just added all the changes to my pob, and it's a huge buff overall. Warbanner + Banner Aura Effect, Rage giving MORE damage, and Berserk giving Rage Effect of that MORE damage is crazy strong. Then there is all the damage efficiency buffs of each skill, and weapon quality changes. \n\nAt the top end, you are looking at around 45%+ more damage than with old melee with totems. The downside is berserk losing the 20% less damage taken, and the fact that these multipliers need to be stacked, so there will be times when you are at low stacks."
}
]
},
{
"body": "Reave and vaal reave looks very tempting, huge buff but added flat was not removed!\nVery tempted to do either a gladiator build with lacerate/reave bleed or a slam build, just not sure if chieftain is still better for builds like volcanic fissure or tectonic slam.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Yuh. I am locked on reave and lacerate if I can make it look good with bleed."
},
{
"body": "FYI Reave didn't have any flat to begin with.\n\nLacerate with 1h/dual wield got hurt a bit with that flat phys removal, but still buffed overall.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "And unless you are using the Butchering version, it also is using the buffs to bleeds. Especially as a glad."
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "Did a [spreadsheet](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iXYenOCttqfMzl7lOzlclmXRI8DF4wUKrq2pD1fe1O0/edit?usp=sharing) for anyone that does want to manipulate the data a bit, or just sort things as they like."
},
{
"body": "If we look at the patch note we can see that lightning strike as\n\n\"Lightning Strike: No longer has Added Lightning Damage at all gem levels. It now has 198% Effectiveness of Base and Added Damage at gem level 1 (previously 135%), scaling up to 237% at gem level 20 (previously 163%). Now has a Mana cost of 6 at gem level 1, scaling up to 10 at gem level 20 (previously 6 at all gem levels)\"\n\nBut if we look at lightning strike on pob and poewiki we can see that the effectiveness at lvl 20 is *225*% and vaal is effectively 163% at level 20, it would mean that the gem \"lightning strike\" is 225 (old) to 237 (new), and not 163 (old) to 237 (new)\n\nAnd thank you for the time saved with the post !"
},
{
"body": "I think a lot of people are forgetting that melee lost totems. While a good thing, totems with Panopticon granted an overall more multiplier of 65% damage, 30% more attack speed and 27% more attack damage, even more for skills like boneshatter, that scaled harder from attack speed. The real buff for most skills will be what you will do with the extra passive points freed from Panopticon and the extra gem slots.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "If only PoB damage numbers cleared my maps and killed my bosses. Totems helped but it was mostly pob damage padding. It never considered the down time involved with constantly placing them or them dying.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "That’s why you used the lingering mastery. It was only POB padding for the idiots who ran Panopticon through an anoint. You didn’t have 100% uptime, but pretty close to it. There are clear winners and losers with these changes. Boneshatter, for example, got straight up nerfed. Double strike, lacerate, etc. got massive buffs."
}
]
},
{
"body": "Banners got a huge buff though and work in the same way without having to invest gems/annoint.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "I looked through them and didn’t see them as exceptionally strong. They are now completely conditional and look to require passive point investment, to really utilize. War Banner is the only one relevant for damage. It’s really going to depend on how much increased and more aura effect multipliers you get, with how little investment. \n\nAssuming you get 400% total increased aura effect, a ridiculous number really, that’s still only 20% more physical damage. Compare to old one, which was 11% increased damage taken, with 100% uptime and no investment from passive tree.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Banners gain 10% aura effect per Valour consumed at level 20. I'm not sure what the max Valour is but looking at the preview it should be at least 50."
},
{
"body": "400% aura effect is 40 stacks of valor, and banners used to go to 50 right?",
"replies": [
{
"body": "You’re correct. So without investment 24% more modifier is possible for 10 seconds. I’m still not sure how easy valour is to regenerate, but it actually is a decent buff overall to mapping. Uber and pinnacle bosses will depend on how easy it is to regenerate. Considering how much weight is placed on valour, I expect it to be somewhat difficult and banner to be rather useless in those encounters.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Valour seems to just be a new name for the same stacking behaviour, so 1 per kill or per rare/unique hit (2/s)"
}
]
}
]
}
]
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "Shield skills where?",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Not on the list, because they don’t have similar effectiveness calculations. I calculates Shield Crush, it got around 70% buff to flat added damage from skill and 60% buff to damage per 15 armor or evasion."
}
]
},
{
"body": "No shield crush?"
},
{
"body": "Could you normalize these or add a column for which skills could use Ancestral Protector/Warchief? Some of these buffs are compensating for 18%/27% more Melee damage and 20%/30% more Attack Speed while many of them aren't, or are only compensating for the attack speed"
},
{
"body": "Don't forget that some skills lost both Ancestral Warchief and Ancestral Protector while others did not benefit from Warchief to begin with (and you could argue that Earthquake didn't benefit from Protector all that much)."
},
{
"body": "Interesting that boneshatter and smite are the only melee skill left with added damage on the skill gem. Overall:\n\na) Weapons upgrades are more important during levelling\n\nb) 2 handed weapons benefit the most (edit: added elemental damage stacking builds benefit even more e.g. trinity claw)"
},
{
"body": "Reave <3\n\nwe 2.xing"
},
{
"body": "Lacerate, here I come!"
},
{
"body": "No love for Firestorm on this list I see."
},
{
"body": "Jaffy will be playing Chain Hook again"
},
{
"body": "1) Include attack speed modification of gem, 2) Include a space to input stats of melee weapon (dmg range), 3) Show the % relative increase of gem for a given melee weapon from old vs new"
},
{
"body": "i there any better version\n\nthis look very bad on mobile :("
},
{
"body": "this doesnt factor in attack speed so its not really useful to compare different skills, but still nice to see the biggest buffs, like double strike of impaling which looks really fucking good",
"replies": [
{
"body": "What? A 50% buff to effectiveness is the same dps increase on a 1.2 asps skill vs a .7 asps skill as long as the base attack speed doesn't change (which it didn't in pretty much all cases)",
"replies": [
{
"body": "And only the wand attacks got a change to base attack speed."
}
]
},
{
"body": "do you even understand what the table is trying to say"
}
]
},
{
"body": "Nexttime sort them from a to z omg",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Lmao this guy"
}
]
}
]
}