{
"post": {
"title": "Skill Comparison and Feedback: Absolution, Dominating Blow, and Herald of Purity",
"selftext": "*Disclaimer: long post ahead.*\n\n**Introduction**\n\nI usually play a DB Guardian during league starts so I was looking forward to trying out Absolution for 3.15, but was pretty disappointed by the skill in general even after the mid-league buffs. After quitting the league early, I tried making a table to compare the skill effects of Absolution with DB and HoP (due to the similarities between the minions of these skills) and would like to share my feedback.\n\n**Table**\n\nhttps://preview.redd.it/nml3sb5k41m71.png?width=1015&format=png&auto=webp&s=bdefa1b4393a52356a7ced34157e3005a99a8fd0\n\n**Subjective Points: Playstyle and Themes**\n\nDB, Absolution, and HoP present an enjoyable playstyle to me that is somewhat distinct from other minion builds in that you “ramp” up your combat effectiveness by actively using your skills against enemies to summon your minions, and then staying aggressive to maintain maximum power. \n\nFrom a roleplay or thematic perspective, these skills give off the feeling of being a commander that leads from the front lines rather than safely from the back. The short period where you start to ramp and summon your minions can also be seen as your character struggling against the odds but is then rewarded for their resolve as reinforcements arrive to turn the tide of battle (although the wording on DB implies you \"convert\" the defeated enemies to your cause). This character fantasy or archetype is probably one of the biggest reasons I stick with DB instead of other minion builds like zombies, specters, or animated weapons.\n\n**Objective Points: Comparison of Skill Effects and Mechanics** \n\nFor reference, I usually play DB as main with Holy Relic and have tried Absolution as main this league with HoP. The secondary minions are mostly there to proc feeding frenzy and I fill the rest of my sockets with utility spells and a mix of auras.\n\n*Absolution*\n\nFor a skill touted as the spell version of DB, Absolution does not have anything else that sets it apart other than the 50% lightning conversion and being able to cast it safely from a distance. Killing enemies tagged with the debuff works the same as DB (consumes the corpse--which is a good effect to have against on-death effects like the spikes from porcupines), but does not give a bonus effect when the enemy is magic or rare. It also does not have any other effects that scale with gem level other than spell damage. It has the shortest minion duration as well as the lowest maximum # of minions. The skill's AoE feels rather small even with Increased AoE support gem, and the minions do not benefit at all from Spell Cascade Support. Combined with the fact that you can only have 3 minions and cast speed is somewhat harder to scale, clearing higher tier maps feels very slow when compared to DB. The minion's empowered Absolution spell deals less damage in a larger area, but is hard to differentiate from the regular version (the Crusade Slam from DB and HoP minions is easily recognizable from the AoE circle it leaves on the ground). The minions also have a melee attack according to PoEDB and PoB, which appears unnecessary as they only cast the regular or empowered version of the Absolution spell.\n\n*Dominating Blow*\n\nWith the bonus effect of summoning extra minions that inherit the mods from magic and rare enemies, DB feels optimal in encounters with hordes of enemies like delve, juiced maps, and the escape phase of heists. Consequently, it tends to feel subpar in end-game boss encounters such as Guardians and Maven invitations since most of them do not spawn enough magic or rare enemies during the fight if at all. There are also certain cases where it can be difficult to ramp up and maintain your minions (assuming no access to a Writhing Jar flask or that you have used up all charges). One example from Harvest league was if you plant all T2 or T3 seeds in a plot as the monsters spawned are all magic or rare respectively, meaning you would have 1-3 minions at most for the encounter (2-6 if you have the corresponding labyrinth enchantment).\n\n*Herald of Purity*\n\nAs a herald spell skill, HoP requires you to use a different skill to kill enemies in order to summon minions. The minions scale damage very well and are often used for single-target dps in DB build guides such as those by GhazzyTV and BalorMage. Unlike DB and Absolution, HoP minions have a chance to be summoned on hit vs rare and unique enemies. The minions also have a melee splash attack that is slower than its regular attack but similar in damage (according to PoB) which feels redundant after they gave it the Crusade Slam from the Guardian ascendancy a while back (there is also the option to socket Melee Splash Support).\n\n**Absolution: Analysis and Suggestions**\n\nWhen comparing Absolution to DB with the assumption that the devs intended Absolution to be similar in power level, it would appear that they placed a significant amount of value in Absolution being a ranged spell which summons ranged minions to warrant not giving it additional effects similar to DB as you and your minions can attack from a safer distance and could have a higher up-time on dps. In its current iteration, I feel that Absolution does not have enough area clear speed or single-target dps to be used as a primary 6-link skill. It also does not provide any type of utility to be used as a complementary skill like Summon Carrion Golems (flat physical damage for other minions) or Raise Spectre (Carnage Chieftain frenzy generation). \n\nMy current suggestions for Absolution aim to bring it in line with the power and mechanics of DB so that it maintains the “ramping” play style, but would specialize into being more of a bossing skill to differentiate it from DB which is more suited as a mapping skill.\n\nSuggestion 1 (“Ramp”): When a magic enemy is killed while debuffed, the player receives a stacking buff (max 3) for a short duration that increases Absolution’s AoE. In the case of a rare enemy, the player receives a buff (max 1) for a short duration that increases Absolution’s cast speed. These buffs do not affect the minions' AoE or cast speed. \n\nSuggestion 2 (Bossing): Absolution spells cast by the player and the minions deal X% increased damage against unique enemies (increases per gem level).\n\nSuggestion 3 (Utility): Enemies hit by the empowered Absolution spell cast by minions have -X% to lightning resistance. The empowered Absolution spell has increased radius, but deals less damage as a trade-off.\n\n**Final Thoughts and Other Suggestions**\n\nOne effect that I feel takes a significant amount of the power budget for these skills is the life refresh when they are re-summoned. It appears very strong as an effect (full heal), but is hard to notice or appreciate in most cases and devalues investment into skills, gear, and passives that provide regen and leech for minions (I think refreshing the minion duration on re-summon is fine as it is). Removing the health refresh on re-summon would help to open space for improving other aspects of these minion skills that are more noticeable and engaging. \n\nSuggestion 4 (“Ramp”): Add X-Y% chance to summon a minion on hitting an enemy based on its rarity (normal 10%, magic 15%, rare 20%, unique 30-40%). With this change, you will not have to rely on killing white mobs to start ramping up your offence, especially in cases where white monster hp can be very high (expeditions and deep delve) or when there is a lack of white monsters nearby (magic and rare mobs in the earlier Harvest example). Thematically, you are still “struggling” against the odds in such scenarios, but you can expect reinforcements to arrive before it’s too late. Against bosses, I feel like a higher chance is required to ramp back up in cases where you have to dodge attacks frequently (Maven), wait out immunity phases (Shaper and Elder), or chase the boss (Sirus). \n\nSuggestion 5 (Minion Duration): Normalize minion duration for Absolution, DB, and HoP to 14-16 seconds. The 10 second duration on Absolution minions feels short for sure, but I do not have much issues with the duration for the other skills other than it would be easier to track how long the minions will last while waiting out immunity phases. For reference, the minions from the Summon Phantasm Support have a 15 second duration and have a similar amount or maximum # of minions as DB. \n\nSuggestion 6 (Herald of Purity): Replace its area melee attack with Leap Slam and change effect of gem quality to minion damage like the other skills. The area melee attack is redundant since it has access to Crusade Slam and would give it a mobility skill similar to DB’s Shield Charge to close in on enemies. This would also reduce the need to have minion movement speed for its gem quality. \n\n *If you have managed to read this far, thanks and I hope this was helpful to you in some way.*",
"url": "https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/pji5cc/skill_comparison_and_feedback_absolution/"
},
"comments": [
{
"body": "I make the mistake to build an Absolution Guardian this league. \n\nLeveling was ok, but when I reached T8+ maps is when I started to regret my decision.\n\nConquerors appears and some bosses like Mastermind... The damage wasn't there so I abandon the build at level 89 so I don't even reach red maps with it. \n\nThe Main problem with the skill imo is minion duration, in boss fight is quite hard to sustain if you are manually dodging the boss attacks, in current state you have to keep hitting the boss the whole time to keep your minions; hell I had to keep hitting the boss to even rise the minions.\n\n3 minions should be ok if Spell Cascade works for them, if not 4 or 5 will be better at clearing maps. For bosses Absolution needs more chance to summon and re-summon the minions.\n\n​\n\nI liked the Skill, I definitely play it again if GGG do some core changes, but as it is right now **is just crap**.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "I've been playing absolution guardian all league and find the damage to be acceptable for single target, however the aoe is absolutely tiny and it might as well be single target only. I am playing low life basically aura stacking tho so that could be why I find the damage acceptable compared to many others. Problem is I basically have to run carrion golem and DPS spectres for clear (and on a psuedo 4L it's still pretty slow). \n\nAlso I've seen a lot of people not using AoF and EE so they are losing like half the damage on absolution. I think if built incorrectly it's going to have really poor damage. \n\nThere biggest change they need to make is almost double the base aoe radius since minion aoe seems to make basically no difference on the skill. It can't be used for clear, also there's a pretty big delay between casting and the skill landing, which causes it to miss on mobile targets a lot.\n\nI don't think giving you more minions is going to make much difference to the skill, you're never going to be able to get by with just absolution, they just don't have the aoe to clear packs.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "> I am playing low life basically aura stacking tho so that could be why I find the damage acceptable compared to many others.\n\nYeah that would do it lol"
},
{
"body": "> ople not using AoF and EE so they are losing like half the damage on absolution. I think if built incorrectly it's going to have really poor damage.\n\nYou arent the one doing damage so who really cares",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Nope, necromancer's little tricks. Turn your dmg to fire to trigger EE for your minions."
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "It'd be great if they could be supported with spell cascade for clear at least"
}
]
},
{
"body": ">I feel that Absolution does not have enough area clear speed or single-target dps to be used as a primary 6-link skill.\n\nexact same impression i had as well, tried the inc aoe/conc effect swap as well.\n\nafter a fucking 500% buff kekw. \"it said good dmg in our notes\" copium.\n\nplay DB amd try to max minion movement speed wherever you can, that's my suggestion currently."
},
{
"body": "Agree. Actually your option 3 is how I ended up playing it. Gave absolution elemental army and used it as a debuff and curse skill."
},
{
"body": "Noteworthy that you can even have 11 instead of 9 white Dominating Blow mobs when you use the Phantasmal quality one.\nThat is a significant boss fight DPS advantage that Absolution does not have."
},
{
"body": "One thing you didn't mention about absolution is that it's the first non spectre minion that can get 100% effect of wrath spell damage without triad"
},
{
"body": "Absolution: I think DB and Absolution ( and herald of purity for that matter) should go in for a rework as follows: \n \nNot affected by minion modifiers. \nAffected by player modifiers. \n \nBasically, like totems that move. \n \nBasically, this removes the anti-fun choice you have to make when using these skills. Between your own damage with the skill and your minion damage from the skill. \n \nThis change just opens up a ton of builds for both. Including ranger DB and absolution builds.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "I like the concept, but I think it would be better to have this effect as a set of passives on the skill tree or a unique item similar to Spiritual Aid and Spiritual Command that allow minion modifiers to affect the player. It could be worded as \"Increases and Reductions to (attack speed / cast speed / damage / etc.) also affect your minions\". This way the player can opt-in to scale with one or both rather than being forced to scale a certain way due to the effect being built into the skills.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "I would love something like that, but the only thing that worries me is that already dominant spectre builds would use it to get a bunch of free stats by double dipping on things like onslaught or haste."
},
{
"body": "Something like The Scourge claw?"
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "Herald of Purity minions are in an incredible state right now, and giving them more mobility or making them better in general would be a huge mistake. They already move and attack very fast with any half decent summoner build, and their damage is insane. They don't need any significant investment to clear well or boss well. In my opinion they're even a subject to a nerf, because it is incredibly easy to reach crazy amounts of DPS with them."
},
{
"body": "the 50% lightning conversion is annoying as hell on absolution too imo and weakens it considerably, since you cant harness the full power of hatred, it also makes applying EE a bitch since the spell itself does lightning damage",
"replies": [
{
"body": "You need to use avatar of fire and convert to full lightning (phys to lightning support) with wrath and zealotry. Have seen a lot of people being unable to comprehend this and then saying it has bad damage.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "huh guess im getting rusty from not playing lol, but yea that should fix my gripes with it, but still being unable to abuse hatred will lower its power level amongst its competition and it has bad aoe and clear to boot, atleast you can utilize algor mortis and make the gameplay more exciting though lol.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "[deleted]",
"replies": [
{
"body": "yea i know, the \"more cold damage\" portion is what im talking about, since the base is no longer dealing cold damage itself."
}
]
},
{
"body": "The aoe is indeed terrible but single target isn't bad at all. You can still use hatred with it, doesn't interfere with your EE and is still a giant DPS boost especially paired with grips of the council. I'm playing it as basically aura stacker guardian with wrath zealotry and hatred and they do around 1.5M each minion, so damage is there at least for single target"
},
{
"body": "With phys to lightning support, CotB ring with catalysts, Pyre ring with catalysts, and AoF you can do some conversion aura abuse. You would actually get quite a nice damage bud from wrath, hatred, zealotry in that scenario.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Cotb will not affect your minions though. You can only convert to lightning (or go half cold half lightning with triad grip).",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Yeah I know. I should have specified that I was talking from a purely player damage standpoint.\n\nI league started absolution and I think the skill feel mechanically horrible. It’ll take some work to bring it to a state that I personally deem usable."
}
]
}
]
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "How does it weaken hatred? Hatred scales off pre conversion phys.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "it also scales of cold damage itself, so converting the base to anything else will make it do less.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "It stops you from doing full phys to cold conversion this is true, but that doesn't make hatred weaker directly.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "14-18% more cold damage portion is weaker, because there less cold damage to make more of, dont know how that isnt a direct reduction in how much damage it gives.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Unless you have a separate source of cold conversion, which the lightning conversion is overweighting, you dong have less cold damage.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "huh? in terms of this skill(abosultion) its converting 50% of the phys to lightning, so your doing 0 cold damage, if you convert the rest of the phys to lightning your still doing 0 cold damage so the \"more cold damage\" portion of hatred will only work with the \"phys as extra\" from hatred itself, and not the base damage that got converted to lightning.\n\nif you convert the base to cold however the \"more cold damage\" portion of hatred will also scale that, you might be confusing \"phys as extra\" with \"conversion\"",
"replies": [
{
"body": "No I'm say that hatred itself isn't directly reduced only full cold conversion is disabled. But hatred alone still works fine.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "well i wasnt talking about it \"not working\" i was saying that the skill doesnt \"take full advantage\" of it."
}
]
}
]
}
]
}
]
}
]
}
]
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "I cant say anything about guardian, but i played an absolution necro in ssf and killed Sirus with it in absolut no gear with a Tabula. And mapping is so smoove, you cast once every 18 secs and just run through the map.\nPob shows even better dmg for Dom Blow, but you would have to go into melee range, which is a bit slower than casting from distance and needs more ramp up time at conqs.\nNever felt it lacks power after the buff tbh.\n\nEdit: and the lightning conversion is the best about the skill, since you can pick up Avatar of Fire and get easy EE running.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Pob please"
}
]
},
{
"body": "It's worth noting that in theory, you could combine all three: Use DomBlow as your main skill, link Absolution with Battlemage's Cry and have HoP activated. I did that during leveling, but it became a bit too clunky eventually. (Also, you'll usually have only one 6L, so go with either HoP or DomBlow).",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Both Dom Blow and Absolution need to consume the corpse"
},
{
"body": "Except Absolution gains none of the spell damage benefits from the battlemage's cry, because it doesn't effect the minions."
},
{
"body": "you cant use bouth DB and abshittlusion together, since bouth only proc minions on \"corpse consume\", so only one of them would actualy get the minion"
}
]
},
{
"body": "I theorizing building a Cold coverted DB with a +3 minion helmet. Does DB work with the socketed attack have + crit chance mod?"
},
{
"body": "I haven't tried it myself, but I imagine Absolution is nice in Crest of Desire (+8 skill levels, some increased gem quality, and double damage but no support gems) whereas you wouldn't want to use Dominating Blow in Crest of Desire since you really need Melee Splash to give the skill & minions a default AoE.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "yes and no, you kinda need the last 50% converted, so for crest to bee worth it, you also have to sac your glove slot for a triad's grip"
}
]
},
{
"body": "From my experiences playing Herald of Purity mana Guardian this league, I feel like the only problem I have with the skill is the inconsistency in summoning them from hitting rare and unique enemies. Boss fights such as Sirus are a pain due to the extreme number of invulnerability instances, meaning that the minions frequently die or expire whilst being unable to attack. Trying to resummon them by hitting Sirus (even with a high attack rate skill such as Cyclone) takes far too long, and it is rare that I can proc it more than a couple of times before he teleports or becomes invulnerable again.\n\nIncrease the proc rate of Herald of Purity, or make the minions last longer.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Just use the life flask recharge every 3 seconds pantheon for sirius/immunity phase bosses. Writhing jar counts and then you just need a single hit to summon 2-4 of them"
}
]
},
{
"body": "> Suggestion 2 (Bossing): Absolution spells cast by the player and the minions deal X% increased damage against unique enemies (increases per gem level).\n\nThis would do literally nothing. Increased damage is readily available everywhere, and even if it were More instead it would just feel like a shoehorned bossing buff."
}
]
}