{
"post": {
"title": "Is this the end of multiplayer gaming on Linux?",
"selftext": "More and more multiplayer games are adding Kernel anti cheat, with the recent ones being Concord and EA Sports WRC. I think it's just a matter of time before all online games start using kernel anti cheat solutions and breaks Linux compatibility.",
"url": "https://www.reddit.com/r/linux_gaming/comments/1eals0w/is_this_the_end_of_multiplayer_gaming_on_linux/"
},
"comments": [
{
"body": "Kernel level AC isn’t necessarily a death sentence for linux support. Helldivers 2’s works fine for Linux as of now. Plus the fact that many others do have some sort of linux support, that just needs to be activated by devs. (which can be the real roadblock)",
"replies": [
{
"body": "yeah, same with Elden Ring. EAC works fine, and Fromsoft isn't just some Indie dev team.",
"replies": [
{}
]
},
{
"body": "Devs are the only roadblock in the industry at this point",
"replies": [
{
"body": "\\*Publishers. At the end of the day the developers depend on their bosses for pay. They're not the ones making these decisions.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "I would have thought anti cheat would be more of a dev issue than an investor one, Maybe I just wrongly assume there all suits who have never picked up a controller on their life",
"replies": [
{
"body": "I mean, it's true that some (if not most) of suits aren't knowledgeable at all when it comes to technical development, but they probably know their anticheat/DRM solutions might not work on Linux or you have to use other solutions and probably don't care about losing a small percentage of sales. I'm not trying to justify it and I'm ofc against these practices, but devs aren't putting the money for development, the publishers and execs are. If they actually saw potential profit in Linux as a platform, they would put the time and resources to make their games work, but most aren't."
},
{}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "Yes and no. Unreal Engine seems to be a mess for Linux having to create your own plugins just to get the engine to work with Linux. We need more devs utilizing Unity, GoDot or even SDL2"
}
]
},
{
"body": ">Kernel level AC isn’t necessarily a death sentence for linux support. Helldivers 2’s works fine for Linux\n\nDoesn't run in kernel on Linux.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "my point kind of still stands, regardless of the AC’s functionality on it, the game still runs and allows you to play online, even though it uses a kernel level anticheat",
"replies": [
{
"body": ">kernel level anticheat\n\nThat's what I'm saying, it *doesn't on Linux*.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "OK, what im saying is the GAME & all of its online features run on linux. Thats what OP is concerned about, not wether the AC actually accesses or does whatever with the kernel on linux",
"replies": [
{
"body": "But this also means if the kernel level anticheat truly offers more protection and not having one allows cheating, that many of the cheaters will pivot to linux.\n\nHopefully it won't be that way as kernel level anticheat can also be circumvented through other means (e.g. hardware) but it is important to make the distinctiom that HD2 only runs because they allow non-kernel-levvel on linux, because depending on the development of the cheating problem that could change."
},
{}
]
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "Even better."
},
{}
]
},
{
"body": "my question wine emulates all the windows api stuffs, something like ndis wrapper allows windows network drivers to run on linux..\n\nI am probably oversimplifying things but why can't wine do a similar thing to emulate kernel level drivers?",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Because the internals of Linux and Windows are organized differently and mapping the API calls in Linux to NTKERNEL with perfectly accurate behavior taken from a proprietary monolithic system is a huge undertaking. WINE is just an API wrapper, it doesn't do too much else, especially not simulating an NT kernel.\n\nThere are some exceptions to this, I think a feature was added in 5.9 for this purpose specifically, but there are practical limits."
},
{
"body": "They have and that's how they are supporting the AC now."
}
]
},
{
"body": "So why Concord doesn't work? Is the same anti-cheat"
}
]
},
{
"body": "I wish Microsoft would close off the kernel, much like Apple has with macOS and Linux. The Cloudstrike thing last week proves it’s a serious security issue and it’s baffling they haven’t done it already.\n\nThis would break anti cheat too",
"replies": [
{
"body": ">This would break anti cheat too\n\nHow sad that would be...",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Exactly haha",
"replies": [
{
"body": "I hope microsoft dosnt make application sandbox as default for win12 apps making stealing data more difficult, that'll be horrible to the industry",
"replies": [
{
"body": "It depends on how well the sandbox would be executed... Or possible backdoor for MS eyes only"
}
]
}
]
},
{}
]
},
{
"body": "Or it would force devs to use server side anticheat.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Would this work on Linux?",
"replies": [
{
"body": "That’s how basically all MMO’s handle their bot detection and other cheats/exploits. And most MMO’s just work on Linux. WoW, GW1/GW2, FF XIV, RuneScape."
},
{
"body": "well... Cs:go/cs:2? VAC is a hybrid solution and it works under Linux.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Those are bad examples, they're filled with cheaters. TF2 uses a unique version of VAC that also isn't kernel-level, and it works fine.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "TF2 is flooded with cheaters too.\n\nAs far as I know, server side anti-cheat is less effective than kernel anti-cheat, even though kernel anti cheat is basically a spyware",
"replies": [
{
"body": "the cheating issue with tf2 actually got fixed early this month",
"replies": [
{}
]
}
]
}
]
},
{}
]
},
{
"body": "As I understand it, with server side anticheat the client's OS does not matter.\n\nYou can use whatever client you want, including a browser, but you don't trust anything from the client and monitor the client's actions server side to determine the likelyhood of an unfair advantage.\n\nFrom what little I know though, most game devs won't go for this because it's cpu heavy, since the server is not only hosting the game, but monitoring the activity of every player.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "On top of that it's a very theoretical/technical problem to solve. Although I truly feel it's the solution companies should aim for, it's definitely not a solved problem yet."
}
]
},
{
"body": "Of course, in fact kernel level anticheat would work fine as well if they’d develop it for the Linux kernel. You’d just have to install it as a kernel module in that case, which is a horrible idea but not less horrible than what you’d do on Windows."
},
{
"body": "the server is probably linux so I guess so, yeah."
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "Client-side anti cheat as it currently exists is a poor solution anyway. Kernel level or otherwise. I watched a video not too long ago about a hacker explaining how to sidestep Valorant's anti cheat with a raspberry pi and build an aimbot.\n\nServer-side anti cheat is supposedly a better solution. But from what I have heard it is CPU heavy, which would likely mean companies like Activision, EA, Ubisoft, Microsoft, and so on and so forth would need to beef up their server infrastructure. I'm sure all of those companies would much rather not spend that money and keep it instead so they keep on trucking with client-side stuff.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "exactly. these kernel level anti cheats are already obsolete as cheats don't run on the host system anyway now.\n\npresumably next gen anticheats will have an AI watching for fuckery.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "They haven't since the Quake days."
}
]
},
{
"body": "Never trust the client. But i guess it's cheaper to run the anti cheat there."
},
{
"body": "Server anti cheat isn’t something that has to happen in real time. They can store logs and wait for reports to come in and then review the logs either automatically or via manual review to see if there’s valid cheating. You could also run batch processing during low points in traffic to find all the easy to spot cheaters. It’s not nearly as compute intensive as a lot of people seem to think. Shifting compute resources to low points in the day often incurs either no cost or very little depending on how they’ve setup their servers",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Valve has been trying this for some time. Spending a lot of money. It's not an easy solution that throwing large money can fix. Not having any protection in the meantime will result in tf2 and cs2 situation."
}
]
},
{
"body": "Sometimes just being lucky and detecting cheater once can be well enough. On Steam once you get a VAC banned it's for life and there's nothing you can do about it and it's across all supported games. All it takes is a second of weakness for the cheat software. This solution is at least enough to scare people off from cheating."
},
{
"body": "We need dedicated server hosting era back."
}
]
},
{
"body": ">I wish Microsoft would close off the kernel\n\nThat would close off the vast majority of Windows drivers.\n\n>much like Apple has with macOS and Linux.\n\nNeither macOS nor Linux do any such thing.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "On Macs, 3rd party kernel modules are blocked by default. On Apple Silicon you cannot load unsigned drivers, only Apple signed 3rd party drivers.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "I have no doubts the Crowdstrike drivers were signed."
},
{
"body": "[Apple's documentation seems to disagree.](https://support.apple.com/guide/deployment/system-and-kernel-extensions-in-macos-depa5fb8376f/web)\n\nIn any case, even only allowing Apple-signed drivers is hardly different from the situation in Windows; kernel anticheat developers already work with Microsoft to get their \"drivers\" signed so that Windows will load them without throwing up a bunch of warnings. No reason to believe macOS-based kernel anticheat would be much different, aside from Apple being on less-than-pleasant terms with a certain anticheat developer whose name rhymes with Shmepic Shmames of course :)"
}
]
},
{
"body": "Only WHQL drivers released by Microsoft not entirely different from how Linux works."
},
{}
]
},
{
"body": "you can still load kernel extension on macos, even if it's harder. or use other stuff like the security chip to enforce anticheat, probably."
},
{
"body": "Then we are going to have a single antivirus with kernel access which is “Microsoft Defender”",
"replies": [
{
"body": "If they offer it for free then who cares. Does Apple have to allow access to the kernel for antivirus?"
},
{}
]
},
{
"body": "They literally can't close off the kernel due to settlements with the EU that require them to give third parties the same access to the kernel that they have."
},
{
"body": "They can't do it [https://www.euronews.com/next/2024/07/22/microsoft-says-eu-to-blame-for-the-worlds-worst-it-outage](https://www.euronews.com/next/2024/07/22/microsoft-says-eu-to-blame-for-the-worlds-worst-it-outage) The concern was that they will get a monopoly on security software because of how popular Windows is",
"replies": [
{
"body": "If they move windows defender to only use their new ebnf implementation then they could.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "It depends on what the agreement was back in 2009. I'm sure they'd do it if they could.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "The agreement was about windows defender and competing security software having equal access as it to kernel apis. Imo they will be doing this very soon as their base ebnf support is almost ready plus the crowdstrike incident helps motivate it."
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "It’s nothing to do with the EU. If this was the case why haven’t they forced Apple to do the same?",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Did you even bother opening the article? \n\n>Microsoft has Windows Defender, its in-house alternative to CrowdStrike, but because of the 2009 agreement made to avoid a European competition investigation, had allowed multiple security providers to install software at the kernel level.\n\n>The European Commission had been accusing Microsoft since the early 2000s of having an unfair advantage over other companies because of its popular Windows software.\n\n>Microsoft's main competitor, Apple, in 2020 blocked access to the kernel on its Mac computers, arguing it would improve security and reliability.\n\n>Speaking to the Wall Street Journal, a Microsoft spokesman said the company could not make a similar change because of the EU agreement.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "The issue isn't that the other anti-virus makers wouldn't have access to the kernel, it's that MSFT has access to the kernel and the others don't. If MSFT would concede and use the same API's as the anti-virus makers would use then there wouldn't be an unfair advantage. MSFT is trying to spin this in their favour, so they look like the good guys and the EU is the bad guy. But in reality they just want to create an advantage over the rest and the EU put a stop to that"
},
{
"body": "[deleted]",
"replies": [
{}
]
},
{
"body": "Just from the parts you quoted, it's obvious that whoever wrote that article doesn't understand how device drivers work. \"Allow[ing] multiple security providers to install software at the kernel level\" has jack-all to do with any \"2009 agreement\"; vendors like Crowdstrike are using the exact same mechanisms hardware vendors have been using to load drivers since the 90's."
},
{}
]
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "I heard microsoft did close off the kernel in the past but the EU anti-trust laws made them open up access so they wouldn't have a monopoly on kernel software.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "[deleted]",
"replies": [
{
"body": "At this point they have settlement agreements with the EU to provide the same access to the kernel to third party vendors that they have. Since they will always have full access they basically can't restrict it at all."
}
]
},
{
"body": "If they offered windows defender for free it wouldn’t be an issue",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Offer IE for free is what got them into trouble for \"anti-competitive practices\"",
"replies": [
{
"body": "How is it anti competitive when the service is free?"
}
]
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "Then Microsoft would just sell their own kernel level anticheat solution. I'm not sure that's what we want.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "I mean I was thinking more of the catastrophic disaster that a bad actor could cause by doing something similar to what happened last week but fair enough"
}
]
},
{
"body": "Under the European Union agreement they can't do that."
},
{
"body": "For starters, crowdstrike has samilar crashes on Linux just a few months back. Since very few people use Linux desktop, it was a minor issue.\n\nMicrosoft is providing an interface instead of closing kernel access. Linux allows users to do whatever they want with kernel, including installing crowdstrike or anti cheats."
},
{}
]
},
{
"body": "Deep Rock Galactic, No Mans Sky, Don't Starve Together, Killing Floor 2, Valheim, Overcooked 1 & 2, Jackbox Games, CS Go, Splitgate, Overwatch 2, War Thunder, The Division, The Finals, and the list goes on . . . .\n\nIf this is what the end looks like, what do you consider the peak of multiplayer gaming on linux?",
"replies": [
{
"body": "There's Division 2, The First Descendant, FFXI & FFXIV, Elden Ring, Warframe, Diablo IV are games that run fine on Linux.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "FFXIV runs on linux ? With proton ?",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Yesn't\n\nIt runs substantially better than on Windows using a third party launcher. Im talking 165fps becomes 210+fps on Linux."
},
{
"body": "The launcher is borked but if you download \"xivlauncher\" via lutris, the game runs perfectly."
},
{
"body": "Yes, it has been the case for ages too. FFXIV uses Wine to run on Mac, so it's also more or less perfectly compatible with Linux that way. "
}
]
},
{
"body": "I've had zero issues with Helldivers2 and Once Human as well, I think they both use EAC."
}
]
},
{
"body": "And also a ton of us just don’t give a damn about live service games. Who’s got time for that anyways? I don’t have the time to commit to long uninterrupted gaming sessions"
},
{
"body": "Iracing and Xplane also have multiplayer, for any simulation lovers out there."
},
{
"body": "What about overwatch 1",
"replies": [
{
"body": "mountainous middle snatch modern zonked soup sloppy squalid scale uppity\n\n *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*"
},
{
"body": "Used to work by installing battle net via lutris, but I don't play the game, so I'm not fully sure"
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "I'm very sad that anyone restricts their scope of \"multiplayer gaming\" to only games that are run by big companies and leverage anti cheat.\n\n\nBranch out. Play indie games too. Linux is fine for multiplayer."
},
{
"body": "Its all about market share. When the number of Linux desktops reach the threshold they looking for, they will make thier games work on Linux. And until then, they just do what is the cheapest for them. Luckily Microsoft do anything they can to finally make it happen.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "that's really just a chicken and egg problem.\n\nstudios won't build for linux because of lack of users; there's a lack of users because the thing isn't there.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Technically yes, but still we do see Linux becoming more and more popular even now so one day maybe... And i also expect a big boost when deck 2 comes out and when Win10 goes out of support. If this two (and some other factors) can buff it to just 5%+, i think we will see a snowball effect. But ofc these are just extremely optimistic theories...",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Yeah 5 % would work well even as a \"mental boundary\" where even business people might start taking notice. I'm just afraid that Windows 10 going EOL won't have nearly as much impact as we hope for. Many people will happily keep using 10 for years, and then they will switch to 11 as a part of a hardware upgrade. Not that long ago there were still a lot of people who still used Windows 7."
},
{
"body": "The Deck 2 will move the needle a bit, but I suspect not as much as the Deck 1 did because now the PC handheld market is much more mature with some decent big OEM competitors (all running Windows!) that don't cost over $1000 like they used to (and still do!) from niche players like GPD and Aya Neo in pre-Deck days.\n\nThe Win 10 EOL next year will have the same impact on Linux market share as previous Windows EOLs did i.e. very little. The vast majority of Windows users have never installed an OS from scratch (including Windows itself), so the three mostly likely scenarios are 1) they keep on Win 10 well beyond its EOL, 2) they bite the bullet and upgrade to Win 11 or 3) they buy a whole new PC with Win 11 because their old PC isn't officially supported with Win 11.\n\nI suspect Copilot+/Recall for home users and Crowdstrike for business users might be more likely to bring Linux into the discussion, but even these won't impact Linux market share much. Pre-installing Linux is the only way to see a big shift and while big OEMs have the odd laptop or desktop with Linux pre-installed, it's only Valve that's been shipping units like that in the millions. I predict the next 1-2 years will see Linux get to 2.5% and that's being very optimistic on my part.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "I dont think you can compare other Windows eols to win10 eol, because up to this point, the new OS was always unquestionably better. Win7 was much better than XP. Win10 was much better than 7(ofc there were minor controversies, but really not much). However Win 11 is just an enshittificated version of win10 offering i think (and please correct me if i'm wrong) no advantage for an average home user unlike 7 and 10 did. And altough ofc the resulted change is surely will be low, it would still be a much bigger impact compared to older eols. Also with win 10 eol the problem especially is copilot and recall (and some other stuff), because its what forces ppls to those. Without win10 eol, nobody would care about copilot and recall and other stuff as they would just stay on 10.\nBut please heavily note that i talk here extremely optimistically, clearly even your 2.5 is super optimistic. But i rather hope than just accept the 'enshittification'."
}
]
},
{
"body": "The Deck 2 will have lesser impact than Deck 1 because it's got competition. And by the time Deck 2 Episode 1 comes out, almost all gaming OEMs will have some sort of handheld... With Windows.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "I'm not saying it will defo has an impact hence why i added the 'extremely optimistic theory' part. What i said is those two events is what i see can give the biggest push. There can ofc be things i, or anyone knows about rn that can be bigger than these too.",
"replies": [
{}
]
},
{
"body": "Oh yes, handheld Windows, that was such a success for phones and tablets already."
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "It's slowly coming together though. I've recently converted my main PC to Linux, and Linux seems to be almost mainstream among PC gamers. I think there will be a time not too far in the future where awareness and support from other gamers, along with great user-focused tools like Proton, will boost Linux usage enough to get support from big publishers. It certainly won't overtake Windows anytime in the forseeable future, but it doesn't need to either.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "I don't know how you got the idea that Linux is (almost) mainstream among PC gamers. It's a teeny tiny fraction and most of it is deck."
},
{
"body": ">Linux seems to be almost mainstream among PC gamers\n\nI would love this to be true, but unfortunately we're quite far from that."
}
]
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "Stop playing mid games from trash companies, there are better games out there that aren't made by assholes.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "OR, play what you want and use another platform. Neither is wrong, it's just up to each individual to decide. I happen to like multiplayer \"mid\" games. To each their own.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "I don't like bananas they taste bad. \n\n\nStop eating bananas \n\n\nOr eat bananas and dislike them neither is wrong it's up to each individual to decide. I happen to like bananas that I think taste bad.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "OP never said he doesn't like bananas, omega decided OP should stop eating bananas because he himself doesn't like them. I'm saying do what you want. Linux isn't this amazing thing that will save us, it's just an option with it's tradeoffs."
}
]
},
{}
]
},
{}
]
},
{
"body": "Well you're not missing much with Concord and EA Sport games but there are still plenty of multiplayer games out there with and without anti-cheats you can play. I don't think it's a new trend, EA just sucks."
},
{
"body": "Despite Linux game market share is slloooowly increasing, but we are still 2%-ish that it costs them nothing by not supporting Linux :)",
"replies": [
{
"body": "We're at 4%",
"replies": [
{
"body": "He's mainly talking about gaming, which by steams metrics is about 2%",
"replies": [
{}
]
},
{
"body": "why are you getting downvotes lol"
},
{
"body": "Source?",
"replies": [
{
"body": "https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide",
"replies": [
{}
]
}
]
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "We need to push for server side anticheat and stop this insane in kernel travesty. Where is the EU on this. They have been making things better in so many other spaces and this seems like a good fit for them to push especially given how invasive kernel level changes are and what it potentially exposes the end system to should the developer get hacked and push a malware update to all end users. Just waiting for that to happen, and then it’ll be too late.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "EU has definitely done some great things in regard to technology but they're very slow, only relatively recently forcing Apple to adopt usb c standards after well over a decade of them fucking their customers. That and the 'stop killing games' initiative has me thinking they don't really care about video games.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Well anti cheat and being in kernel is less about gaming and more about how insecure it is and how vulnerable it leaves end users who have to trust a gaming company with their computer safety. Look at what happened with cloud strike and they are a security firm. And still millions were down because of their error and because it was a kernel level app. EAAC as kernel layer could conceivably do the same or worse create a back-door for a hacker to exploit. Thats what we should all be concerned about."
},
{
"body": "when the EU passed the bill that would enforce all handheld devices to use USB C, they set a deadline for 2024. Everyone complied well before that, it was Apple that dragged it out, that's why nothing happened until now"
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "A shame we'll only be left with all the other games that aren't live-service cashgrabs and also don't use obscenely invasive anticheat software."
},
{
"body": "Well, heavy competitive games will move towards that for the sake of \"integrity\"of the competition because esports. The good old co-op play and casual competitive games will mostly not do that. \nI used to care heavily about competitive games leaning to esports and even competed for a while some years ago, nowadays I mostly idgaf, my single players and co-op are enough for me."
},
{
"body": "The bigger question is: are there any multiplayer games I want to play?",
"replies": [
{
"body": "project zomboid, l4d2, tf2?",
"replies": [
{}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "[deleted]",
"replies": [
{
"body": "My nightmare is that someone creates persistent remote code execution via one of these kernel anti cheat systems and it’s forcibly put on millions of computers"
}
]
},
{
"body": "I'm much more alarmed by the fact that it seems that people see it as okay and not really caring that they have something like this on a kernel level regardless of their operating system and basically accept it as long as they can play the game.\n\nThe general public probably don't realize all the possible harm such software can do and how difficult it is to protect from it when it's on kernel level, nor are they getting educated about the issue and in the meantime corporates making these tools are just testing the waters on how much spyware shit can they install on PCs and get away with it.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "\n\nThat's the issue harm is still mostly in realm of \"possible\" or \"potential\". Until one of those acs finally gets taken advantage off people will not care"
}
]
},
{
"body": "No. Fun fact about the vast majority of recent kernel anti cheat games: None of them have been worth it anyway. They're just more attempts at fortnite, overwatch, counterstrike that are covered in extreme pbr gloss and riddled with microtransactions. \n\nMultiplayer games (anti cheat or not) that support linux and steam deck through proton. Aren't going anywhere (for now) and Imho it's better to just play those right now than give any money to EA and Sony going forward."
},
{
"body": "I think there's three possibilities more likely to happens in the near future:\n\nOr Microsoft will close the kernel space, much companies will cry but in life you need to adapt to new deals sometimes\n\nOr someone will find a way to put kernel Ac on linux avoiding those issues like custom kernels and stuff. I think most Linux users don't like this idea but companies love and well, you'll have the option of not play the games you already can't play because of the AC \n\nOr, what I think is more probably, bypass kernel Ac eventually will become trivial. I don't know about English but searching on my home language in YouTube and TikTok I can easily find cheats being sold for valorant. And they are totally software, no need of a specific piece of hardware like most people think. I don't know how they are made but the fact is they work.\n\nIn this last scenario the only option will be move to server side anticheats. Companies don't like this option cause turns the servers more expensive but I think it will be the only functional solution in the future. If hackers still find a way to cheat with this so it will be the time to gave up and abandon competitive games."
},
{
"body": "[Concord considered a bomb in terms of unpopular games](https://videogames.si.com/news/concord-open-beta-low-player-number-steam).\n\n[Concord struggles to get over 1200 users playing ](https://www.sportskeeda.com/esports/concord-open-beta-struggles-maintain-respectable-player-count-steam)\n\n[Multiplayer games on Steam](https://steamdb.info/charts/?category=1).\n\nCounterstrike has over a million players. Helldivers has 15,000.\n\nCan't speak of concern for EA or WRA because you know when the open source community has to create specialized downloaders to install the software holding the library hostage, what are the odds they'll be concerned with anti- cheat compatibility for linux? \n\nUbisoft is almost as bad but they at least let you install on linux. \n\n>More and more multiplayer games are adding Kernel anti cheat, with the recent ones being Concord and EA Sports WRC. I think it's just a matter of time before all online games start using kernel anti cheat solutions and breaks Linux compatibility.\n\nWith your post now in context, let's examine the user base for \"Linux\".\n\n[0.44% of Steam users are playing on Linux.](https://truelist.co/blog/linux-statistics/)\n\nSave to say, if you're thinking Day One, kernel anti- cheat games are prioritizing linux? Good luck. \n\nYou can always play older or more popular games."
},
{
"body": "Games with invasive anti cheat, are on my Wont Buy List.\n\n\nEven on windows.. won't buy them."
},
{
"body": "Anti cheat software devs should stop relying so much on Kernel level access, and do server end properly but they dont want to invest money and are happy going to third party devs to do their job, also with the popularity of the Steam Deck I doubt they will ignore it much longer, there is a massive demographic that will be missing out on sells if they do that.",
"replies": [
{
"body": ">there is a massive demographic that will be missing out on sells if they do that.\n\nI'm not sure I'd say it's \"massive\", but definitely non-negligible.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Ok, currently growing, and if you put all the handheld linux users outside the Steam Deck I think it will become big."
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "Actually the exact opposite will happen. Kernel based AC solutions, which are proven to not work more effectively and have a LOT of downsides such as providing an attack vector on the entire system plus them being a black box and a security/privacy threat, will eventually just die. These are being selected by shareholders as a \"good enough\" cost-effective solution instead of doing things properly (meaning server-side). ANY kernel AC can be bypassed. In multiple ways. \n Companies who see where things are going are actually enabling the Linux options for AC solutions that already have them. Locking yourself out of the steam deck/proton market, citing AC as the reason, is the stupidest thing you can do to your game.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "> Kernel based AC solutions, which are proven to not work more effectively\n\nWhere is the proof? I'd like to have it.\n\nI keep hearing from valorant gamers that Vanguard fixed the cheating problem and they wish other games used kernel level.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "This is a fact that is obvious to every low level engineer out there. The simplest way to bypass it using a kernel mode driver yourself but that requires access to an EV code signing certificate (it's really not that hard to get, I have one and I can write windows drivers) or an existing driver such as winring0 that can be used to write to other processes' memory (among a lot more other things). \nAlso with Win11 running essentially virtualized on hypervisor (which how you get features such as WSL), you can use the hypervisor itself as an attack vector to inject code to any process. \n \nWhat most people have been using though is their cheating code running remotely in a secondary system (Pi is used a lot). And there are even services you can pay to cheat in Valorant. You may want to read this: [https://www.esportsheaven.com/features/the-cracks-in-riot-vanguards-shield-anti-cheat-and-the-secret-battle-with-hackers/](https://www.esportsheaven.com/features/the-cracks-in-riot-vanguards-shield-anti-cheat-and-the-secret-battle-with-hackers/)\n\nAnyone who has worked on anticheat code ever, will tell you that the only way to do anticheat is to do it server-side. No matter what the client is impossible to secure UNLESS the owner does not have admin access to their own systems (which is what Apple is doing and what Google is moving towards to -- and it is completely wrong and unethical). \n \nThe bottom line is that only people who do not understand the low level internals of Windows and OSes in general think that a kernel mode driver is a secure anti-cheat. Far from it. \nWhat it actually is though, is a piece of software that is running with ring0 access, hence it has access to literally \\*everything\\* in your system (including direct access to hardware, enabling things such as sidechannel attacks) while itself is a complete black box. Meaning you have no idea what it is collecting, what it is spying at and what it sends back. It introduces several problems while it literally solves nothing:\n\n1. System instability. Any bugs in the software can result in stop errors (aka BSODs as most users know them on windows) and data corruption. Considering a lot of different games use them, which get constant updates, the likelihood of such issues is high. \n \n2. Performance issues. Considering the software is examining constantly everything on your system, process and thread tables, process memory, files on disk, etc etc, all that has overhead. And when all that is running in kernel space the performance degradation is worse. For example it can cause huge spikes in DPC routine latency and create issues with any application needing realtime or near-realtime performance (eg audio/video playback). \n \n3. The security issue. The driver itself is an attack vector. Certain types of bugs if found in the code may allow arbitrary code execution with maximum privileges. And when you know this software to be available on millions of systems playing games, it makes perfect sense to hunt for CVEs in said software. \n \n4.The privacy issue. As was stated before, what we are talking about is software that can do literally anything on your system without you knowing. It is a essentially the same as a rootkit. If you have ever heard of rootkits, they are exactly that, malware running in kernel space which allows them to camouflage whatever they are doing from the administrator of the system. Do you trust said companies? The usual argument is that these are big companies that would not do such questionable stuff but see Sony for example: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony\\_BMG\\_copy\\_protection\\_rootkit\\_scandal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandal)\n\nSeriously kernel mode AC solutions should be branded malware and be illegal to use. Anticheating should be done properly. Server side."
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "[deleted]",
"replies": [
{
"body": "It was already announced EA anti cheat will come to BF1 as well",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Sauce?"
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "Absolutely ridiculous alarmist take."
},
{
"body": "Who tf needs shitty live-service multiplayer games?",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Any mmo fan?"
},
{
"body": "Investors, obviously :)"
}
]
},
{
"body": "If you really want to play those games, just set up a dual boot system."
},
{
"body": "This is only an issue for shooting games. \"Multiplayer gaming\" ≠ shooting games. All the strategy and simulation games that I play don't have kernel anti-cheat and never will, so there's no problem."
},
{
"body": "Yes, two games adding this kernel level travesty means that all online games will. /s\n\nStop worrying, we can't see the future. A lot of things can happen. Sometimes, even unexpected happens."
},
{
"body": "I really don't care tbh. I have a Windows 11 partition for games that don't work under linux. It does nothing but run those games. That also limits the amount of \"damage\" a Kernel AC can do.\n\nAnd i really hope that's not the final solution for games. The move to Vanguard for League has been pretty rocky. And a game update now requiring a System Reboot is, quite frankly, rediculous. Plus i've had multiple friends have stability issues with their windows systems after the switch to vanguard.\n\nI'm not particularly idealistic when it comes to my OS. I use Linux because i prefer how it works. But i have no issue running Windows for the games that don't work under Linux. And it not being my primary OS with Kernel AC is only a perk imho. And i'm not sure if we'd actually want to have the situation, that devs actively try to make Kernel AC a thing on Linux. Because if Online gaming on Linux with EA Games and such should be a thing, you can be sure they'll not go \"well, linux Users are so nice, they probably don't cheat anyways\". They'll only allow it if we get the same level of Intrusive AC as Windows Users have now. And i'm pretty sure most people in the linux Community would never want that."
},
{
"body": "[deleted]",
"replies": [
{
"body": "CS2 is a very negative marketing to non kernel ACs, there's reports about simple executables messing with the files during game execution that are not detected (or at least their users are not punished). The reality is valve just don't care too much about cheaters but the consequence is a lot of non tech savvy gamers simply looking at it and concluding well, user space/server side ac bad, kernel level ac good."
},
{
"body": "As long as CS2 is supported on Linux I can cope. :)"
}
]
},
{
"body": "Then it's the end of multiplayer gaming for me."
},
{
"body": "> Concord and EA Sports WRC\n\nare both jokes, not games."
},
{
"body": "Throne & LIberty devs just enabled anti-cheat in the middle of their beta... sucks because it ran so well before they destroyed it."
},
{
"body": "I'm just waiting for an online game to pull a Cloudstrike and everyone ask themselves why the hell a game can do that."
},
{
"body": "Crowdstrike incident should be clear that nothing should be allowed in Ring 0.\n\nIt doesn't take much to destroy your system while there is stuff going on in ring 0 that isn't native"
},
{
"body": "Part of the problem is that cheaters are allowed to use computers and walk around unmolested.\n\nIf there were no cheaters, anticheat wouldn't have that justification to abuse our rights and resources.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Well, the way i look at it. It just raises the entry bar. I still see cheaters in squad all the time. Anticheat doesn't fix anything. I've even been locked out of single player games because it couldn't connect to their server, ubisoft makes me log in to play assassins creed brotherhood still.\nWe need to put a stop to it. \n\nIf anyone ever bothers to go on the pirate bay, they will quickly notice that all the drms are broken same day and some within the week of release. The real hard ones, end up with a money pot and who can break it gets money\n\nThese developers need to give up. Moderators are the way for online matches. Single player. Just make a good game"
}
]
},
{
"body": "no."
},
{
"body": "The doomerism isn't grounded in reality. The supported anti-cheat list only gets bigger and bigger. https://areweanticheatyet.com/",
"replies": [
{
"body": "It doesn't matter that the list gets bigger with largely inconsequential games if the big selling games that will actually make or break OS selection for many users don't support it, and it's worrying if the amount of those games with kernel anti-cheat increases.",
"replies": [
{}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "Its a fase, kernel level anticheat isn't doing a better job than non-kernel level anticheats (it was a bit of a stumble block in its early days, but now we have well established ways around it all). So when we're back up at regular cheating levels, games will likely stop pushing kernel level nonsense.\n\nThe risks of kernel level AC, just look to the crowdstrike bug. Any update to kernel level AC like valorant can literally brick your system just like that."
},
{
"body": "Yes, kernel level anti cheat will get used more and more until Microsoft puts a kibosh on the concept after someone inevitably makes a malicious exploit out of it like happened to some other features like Hyperthreading or SMT.\n\n\nFor smaller devs it's a no brainer and it's hard to blame them for using it, because the alternatives are entirely out of their budget and less effective on Linux.\n\n\n\nMy advice as a developer is to buy the worst used console or mobile phone that can play the game which you are interested in. \n\n\nDual booting only works if you can devote an entire hard drive to it, and Kernel level anticheats are not something I would trust on a windows machine from 99.9% of companies anyways."
},
{
"body": "Yeah it sucks but I just use windows to play my games. Valve is doing what it can but hell even CS2 has been a shitshow on linux since it's release and that's their own title with native support! If you like a game, and want to play it, you're not betraying linux or it's community by having a windows install to play it. \n\nI actually think a lot of people expect too much of linux as a desktop. It's held together mostly by a bunch of volunteers and the major investments are spent more on specific non gaming solutions. Many many companies are not cooperating and why would they want to support an OS whereby one of the main philosophies contradicts their greedy business models?"
},
{
"body": "Obviously is not the end, we have thousands of games in steam when you filter for Linux Native\n\n\npay for Native software and Don't pay for Windows builds"
},
{
"body": "Check https://www.protondb.com and see supported game."
},
{
"body": "I mean... VFIO VMs are still an option for certain anti-cheats so... Not yet?"
},
{
"body": "Yes, for bad games that were never worth playing"
},
{
"body": "At most it’s the end of AAA generic bullshit multiplayer gaming. Couldn’t care less.\n\nEdit: also, LOL https://www.reddit.com/r/linux_gaming/comments/1ean8md/according_to_this_site_more_than_50_of_games_with/"
},
{
"body": "These live service games are trash anyway. Go to the Indies, that is were the gold is."
},
{
"body": "I’ll just be over here continuing to play TF2 on Linux and having a blast."
},
{
"body": " think we will see AI looking players patterns to avoid cheats in less than 5 years. this kind can handle hardware cheats too, and can be reusable to anothers games. I'm pretty sure there are some company training some AI for that rigth now"
},
{
"body": "I thought Linux users had no friends to play with /s",
"replies": [
{
"body": "thats why the game devs added matchmaking features to all those windows and console games and i suspect its also why theres so many cheaters. you aren't just playing with a bunch of good friends and having a good time but against some strangers that might be tired of losing all the time. after all wheres the fun if you always get shot withing the first seconds of the round?"
}
]
},
{
"body": "Latest most played games, Onced Human and The first descendants, is still playable on Linux"
},
{
"body": "Don't use the steam version if you have a retail account, they use separate account systems, don't know why it's segregated for the same game."
},
{
"body": "Don't use the steam version if you have a retail account, they use separate account systems, don't know why it's segregated for the same game."
},
{
"body": "Not at all, not all multiplayers are competitive PvP games.\n\n \nI play a lot of coop multiplayers games with my friends and none have those kernel level malware in it aside from a few who work well on Linux (like Helldivers II)"
},
{
"body": "Even if they will add support for Linux I'm not going to install that shitty \"kernel anticheat\" to my precious Linux. I'll use the dumpster fire windows install for that shit"
},
{
"body": "I wonder what impact the Crowdstrike incident will have; it will have raised general awareness of what \"the kernel\" actually is, and how potentially damaging it can be allowing things access to it. If I were still a Windows user I would be wondering about what else has kernel access now."
},
{
"body": "Anti-cheat is all kinds of dumb. Some of my games refuse to run because of anti-cheat, and do you know why the anti-cheat is activating? My ASUS RGB lighting strips in the Ryzen B450 PC , if I take them out, no anti-cheat warnings on launch, weird right?. Who knew rgb was cheating"
},
{
"body": "The crowdstrike incident is just further argument *against* kernel level rootkit \"anti cheat\" solutions, if a major security company can drop the ball like that do you really think games companies won't? Let alone when the genshin impact rootkit was used as a malware dropper.\n\nThis is unacceptable and anyone who installs these is an idiot (and that's presupposing that the company behind the rootkit is 100% benevolent and won't use it for anything but preventing cheating, in practice it's a privacy nightmare to boot)."
},
{
"body": "Seeing this type of shit makes me happy that fighting games are (largely) free of this type of BS. Street Fighter 6, Guilty Gear Strive, Granblue Fantasy Versus, all work flawlessly online on Linux."
},
{
"body": "I’ll keep playing old and reliable games then, don’t care about new and mostly bad games tbh, see you all in battlefield 3/4 guys 👍"
},
{
"body": "Brave of you to consider EA's products games"
},
{
"body": "No not at all"
},
{
"body": "Maybe could Valve motivate publishers with taking smaller margins when they support Steam Deck in their online games..\n\nWar is far from over. All those other handhelds with Windows, indirectly supported by MS to combat linux.. Valve must step-up their game."
},
{
"body": "With the Steam Deck going as strong as it is, I honestly doubt it. Sucks for those who play those games that do not support it."
},
{
"body": "Is it possible. How do I install LoL for Ubuntu? So LoL started using Vanguard a while ago and it doesn't work on Linux."
},
{
"body": "EAC and VAC work, you can play Halo.\n\nThe problem is mostly Battleeye and WRC."
},
{
"body": "There are games with kernel level AC that work on Linux ie. Helldivers 2, Naraka: Bladepoint, Genshin Impact."
},
{
"body": "This is something you should have asked 5 years ago. Now thanks to Valve, not so much."
},
{
"body": "No 2XKO is a bummer"
},
{
"body": "I more fear devs allowing Steam Deck and blocking desktop Linux, which I thought was impossible until Dungeonborne rolled around."
},
{
"body": "Try Quake Champions."
},
{
"body": "if only we can convince the windows gamers to blacklist studios that intentionally block linux users from enjoying the game..."
},
{
"body": "For me kernel AC = I don't play the game\n\nNever installing a rootkit.\n\nHope CS2 become better with Linux support in general, and improve their server-side AC. Haven't seen many cheaters when I played (I don't play premiere mode) but the ones that I encountered were obvious enough to be detected by a proper AC IMO."
},
{
"body": "Even if they will add support for Linux I'm not going to install that shitty \"kernel anticheat\" to my precious Linux. I'll use the dumpster fire windows install for that shit"
},
{
"body": "Reject modernity, embrace old school runescape"
},
{
"body": "one word: bottles (or wine)"
},
{}
]
}