{
"post": {
"title": "CMV: Console is superior to PC when it comes to multiplayer gaming",
"selftext": "My whole discussion is based on 1. Strictly Multiplayer gaming and 2. Rampant cheating that has affected almost all multiplayer games\n\nI know the console vs PC debate is as old as humanity (jk). There are always never ending debates on whether one is superior to another. In my personal opinion however, I'll never use PC for multiplayer gaming because of one simple reason: Cheating.\n\nMost cheat engines change client side information to cheat in multiplayer games. As long as the underlying OS allows custom scripts/applications to run that alters your input, there is virtually no way to stop cheaters from creating cheats in multiplayer games. A client side input is always gonna be compromised no matter how good of a server side detection they put out. \n\nThe best solution imo is consoles. Latest consoles haven't been fully jailbroken yet so cheaters are not able to add any custom scripts. Even if they get jailbroken, the system software needs to be updated to be able to play multiplayer. (You could say they can likely spoof the OS version but I doubt it is that easy). I know that there are cheats that gets installed in controllers but those are not as common and it's easier for console manufacturers to actually ban them. \n\nWith this in mind I've told myself I'll always stay with consoles. I know PCs are powerful when it comes to graphics and I might be missing out on them but I'd rather have a fair gaming experience. CMV if I'm wrong. \n\nTL;DR : Choose console if you don't want to run into cheaters.\n\n\n*Edit* A big oversight on my end is that I almost exclusively play FPS games and I was narrow sighted to consider FPS as the whole multiplayer scene.",
"url": "https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/16z15xy/cmv_console_is_superior_to_pc_when_it_comes_to/"
},
"comments": [
{
"body": "No subscription to play multiplayer on PC. That’s it.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "seems wild thats still a thing, I was a playstation guy and I feel liked I stopped buying consoles when PSN became a paid service\n\nlong live the steamdeck : )",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Same here, grew up with playstation. However, I still own a PS4 and a PS5 because of the exclusives and playing on a big tv and lounging on a comfy couch takes me back to the good old days as a kid.\n\nBut if I see a game that has multiplayer, I don’t even hesitate…I just get it on PC. \n\nI get killed by a cheater? Eh. That doesn’t really say anything about my skill as a player, I literally got cheated on. Just move on, move to another lobby, done deal.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "it's nice now that PS games are coming to PC, albeit late but still I can play the latest ratchet and clank game on my handheld PC and that's cool as shit\n\ndeck works great with a dock but I oddly prefer it in handeld\n\nI'd recommend anyone who can afford one to get one (I split payments on an app)\n\nhell i even had to RMA one and I still recommend them",
"replies": [
{
"body": "I do own a steam deck, it’s become my emulating machine by the bedside.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "[Mah Brother](https://media.tenor.com/S-fvVjc7JQ0AAAAd/arnold-handshake.gif)"
}
]
}
]
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "Yeah this is a very compelling reason. Console network subscription are only getting expensive. You could argue they give out free games every month but I've not cleared much of my free games backlog yet.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "On pc you also get free games, without the subsciption. Epic games gives away a new game every week, steam and humble occasionally do it too, and i bet there are many others. And thats not to mention the option of getting basically every game for free through piracy, though thats somethimes does not work for multiplayer games."
},
{
"body": "Yep, i used to just keep my PS Plus sub for the longest time…claiming the free games. But after hearing about the price increase, it really made me think long and hard about it.\n\nI eventually cancelled it hours after hearing about it. At the end of day, there are free games given out every month sure…but when did I really download these games and open them? I came up with nothing tbh. To me, the free games given to me didn’t really add any value to me since I’ve no intention of playing them anyway."
}
]
},
{
"body": "[deleted]",
"replies": [
{
"body": "I mean, if we're going semantical.\n\nInternet service is considered a Bill whereas PS Plus is a Subscription.\n\nThe difference between a Bill and a Subscription is that there are extras fees that can be added on top of a monthly Bill. Late fees, cancellation fees. A subscription does not have any of these, a subscription can usually be cancelled without any extra fees.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "[deleted]",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Hey, the more ya know right. I'm just some late 30 year old dude with bills and subscriptions to balance loool"
}
]
}
]
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "Not every game is filled with hackers..\n\nYou can typically just hop to a different session\n\nTypically PC offers server browsers, meaning you can choose your servers which is a huge boon besides avoiding hackers\n\nCheating happens mostly from my experience in FPS games, FPS games are always more enjoyable on a PC, the better framerate makes gaming in general better but using a mouse and keyboard is far more precise and requires more skill\n\nEven casually this makes developing skill more satisfying\n\nOutside of cheating:\n\nI have steam, meaning I don't have to worry about backward compatibility and my games will be available indefinitely. Games I bought 15 years ago are still in my account and playable on any PC.\n\nI can install mods extending the shelf life of most games indefinitely. Even multiplayer games support mods quite often.\n\nThe price of my gaming experience is lesser. Games are cheaper and even be pirated if you wish. I don't have to upgrade my computer to play newer games if I decide the performance hit is worth saving 500 bucks every 5 years.\n\nOnline gaming is always free and included in games. I don't have to pay for Nintendo Alive or YextBox Now or whatever.\n\nI can emulate console games. (switch games the day they come out : )",
"replies": [
{
"body": ">Not every game is filled with hackers..\n\n>You can typically just hop to a different session\n\n>Typically PC offers server browsers\n\nDoesn't work though if you want to play for rank.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "im not really sure I know what that is\n\nif it means you're competing for prizes, prestige or to be ranked for some kind of pro status\n\nthen it seems that's 100% percent incumbent upon the developer to prevent cheating otherwise this ranked competition is totally useless sure"
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "1). The system software has to be kept up-to-date for PC multiplayer too, so once it's jailbroken, a console is just as vulnerable to cheats as PC, and it still takes time for cheats to break into PCs as well.\n\n2). Consoles as a whole are heavily moving towards cross-platform play, so you're going to be playing against users on PCs even if you're on a console.\n\n3). No 13-year-olds telling you they fucked your mom on PCs.\n\n4). Mods and custom maps and servers make PC superior.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Yeah, I'd argue mods alone are worth it\n\nSome games feel completely different with mods, and you can customize them to however *you* want to game to be, console has some outliers like skyrim, for example, but that's still much more restrictive and game limited",
"replies": [
{
"body": "even fallout 76 has mods, since they're only aesthetic mods like your map or hud they're permitted\n\npc gaming is great :3",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Yep, and if you think about it, that was always a thing even dating back to early WoW days with addons. \n\nPC gaming has a higher barrier to entry, but is just so obviously the superior option even if you ignore some of the common arguments like performance or using m+k. \n\nMods extending a game's life or changing features that you personally didn't enjoy, games always being compatible as long as you can run them (and then even if you can't, you often only need to upgrade 1-2 parts rather than buying a whole new console), server selection for multiplayer, games often end up being cheaper especially when considering steam sales, console commands in certain games, and best of all: **it's also just a really high-powered computer.** \n\nI really don't understand why my adult friends, many of whom make more than I do and have fewer costs meaning they can afford a PC, still update to the next gen console every time."
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "I'll have to disagree with point 3. \n\nHow did that happen to me in Euro truck sim 2?"
},
{
"body": "Jailbreaking takes years for most consoles. It hasn't even been a major concern since the 360/ps3 days. You will never run into a hacker in any console multiplayer game from the previous or current gen. If you do, it's almost going to be from crossplay to pc. If there is a hacking problem, it'd come well after the expected lifespan of the console and is a complete non-issue for most console players. \n\nAs for cross-platform, it's still incredibly rare in the grand scheme of things. Xbox/pc gets the majority of cross platform stuff but if you're on a ps4/5 or switch which makes up the vast majority of console users you will have a very limited selection of games where you play with pc players.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "I've been following PS4 jailbreaking community and also jailbroken my old PS4. there is not a way to play multiplayer games with an older jailbreakable firmware yet and it's been years since it was jailbroken."
}
]
},
{
"body": "Console does not have stack overflow or RCE/RAT exploits that can severely compromise your PC. Console is the ultimate safest place for online play."
}
]
},
{
"body": "I tend to agree having gamed on both PC and Console. I would add one additional benefit, although much less significant is the relatively even playing field when playing competitively. 99% of people you play with are playing with the same hardware, same controller, etc. I think it's marginal but still exists.\n\nWhat turned me off PC gaming is much more subjective. I can't help but play with settings. I would boot up Battlefield 4 with my FPS counter and if I saw the counter drop I'm into the settings because there must be an adjustment to shadows or antialiasing that I could tweak to get a few more frames. Maybe a custom ini file out there I can play with. I must have spent hours just tweaking the games when I could be playing them.\n\nNow, on a console, I don't have access to those settings. So I just play the game and don't worry about it. It's objectively inferior, but for me, it gives me a better overall experience."
},
{
"body": "PC has way better availability to games, which is way more important to me. Here’s some of what I play with friends that wouldn’t work as well on console or aren’t available \n\n\nModded Minecraft, League of Legends, Magic the Gathering Arena, Civilization 5"
},
{
"body": "It can't play many of the most popular multiplayer games. There's no console DotA or LoL, there's no console Starcraft. How can it be superior if it doesn't support half the genres?"
},
{
"body": "This isn't true if you are talking about co-op or if you are playing with friends."
},
{
"body": "What's your experience with PC multiplayer gaming? I've been playing multiplayer games for over a decade, and I've never run into a systemic cheating issue in any of them. Of course, I've not played every game there's been, but I've played a hefty mix of them, both massively popular and more niche.\n\nHave I encountered cheaters? Of course. But I move on to the next match and I don't encounter another for a very long time. The closest I've come to consistent encounters with cheaters was on games with very low player populations, meaning that the people who are still around are pretty invested in it, some of whom go to the effort of cheating. These games are generally less maintained by their developers too.\n\nAre there specific games that you play that you'd worry about on PC? CoD? Siege? Fortnite?",
"replies": [
{
"body": "and yet those niche games will often have well run private servers that handle cheating very very well\n\nhell you can play every COD on PC on private servers\n\nI can go boot up world at war if I want to hehe",
"replies": [
{
"body": "That just makes it more of a non-issue.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "yea hehe I was in agreement : )"
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "COD mostly.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "https://earlygame.com/call-of-duty/cheaters-are-furious-cods-anti-cheat-actually-works-now\n\nhttps://www.gamesradar.com/warzone-ricochet-anti-cheat-kernel-level/\n\nhttps://www.callofduty.com/blog/2023/04/call-of-duty-modern-warfare-II-and-warzone-2-0-ricochet-anti-cheat-season-3-update\n\nhttps://www.theverge.com/2023/8/3/23818380/call-of-duty-anti-cheat-kill-feed \n\nhttps://www.theverge.com/2023/4/4/23669939/call-of-duty-warzone-xim-ban-suspension-warning\n\nSeems like Activision's been putting the work in.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Sorry I'm regular over at the cod subs and this is very much an issue with the latest release as well.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Any information from them on the rate at which it's happening?",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Doesn't even matter. Conceding that COD is better on console, to better avoid cheaters, is a far cry from saying that all multiplayer PC experiences are inferior to console.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "An excellent point."
}
]
}
]
}
]
}
]
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "Cheating is really only an issue if you play with random internet strangers \n\nIf you play with your friends, the risk of cheating is minimal and you get all the benefits of PC gaming",
"replies": [
{
"body": "I think competitive multiplayer is implied here. Otherwise the issue of cheating wouldn't be OP's primary argument."
}
]
},
{
"body": "People can still run mouse and keyboard on a console and screw you over in an FPS while you're stuck on controller. Would you consider that fair?",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Most competitive games on console can be limited to controller options only. If a keyboard is detected it will put you into cross platform lobbies.\n\nThere are the 'mkb' type controllers out there but they function differently and not as well as an actual mkb. Thankfully these are very rare."
}
]
},
{
"body": "You can cheat on console as well, the methods are just different. You can connect controllers with cheats on them, you can install extra software etc… check out MW2 (OG) and you’ll see how many hackers there are. \n\nAlso the same freedom that allows SOME hackers in PC games, also allows people to create mods to extend the shelf life of games, whereas this community is non existent in console games. \n\nPC is superior due to the superior controls (Keyboard and Mouse) and even if you don’t think they are superior you can still plug in a controller and have it work. \n\nPC you are able to get MUCH higher frames per second thus giving you an advantage in some games due to the increased response time. Additionally you have vastly more available resolutions and are able to run those resolutions at much higher frame rates than on a console. \n\nAdditionally MOST PC multiplayer game do not require an online monthly subscription to play such as PS+ and Xbox Live. \n\nPC is also the superior platform because you get to keep and play your games indefinitely whereas when a new xbox comes out it eventually becomes obsolete and your games library is sunset."
},
{
"body": "The most popular multiplayer games are on PC. I play league of legends and encounter a cheater in maybe 1/500 games."
},
{
"body": "Is your argument just going to ignore co-op multiplayer?\n\nBaldur's Gate 3 is a fantastic game for multiplayer, no cheating, and it's a game I couldn't imagine enjoying half as much with a controller in hand vs keyboard and mouse.\n\nThat's just one example of many. Some people just prefer PC whether it's for keyboard and mouse, more graphics customization/ the potential for much higher framerates, or for the ability to host your own servers for multiplayer. \n\nMinecraft and V Rising are two multiplayer games my gf plays online with her kids. There's no cheating because it is only them in the servers. Are there even consol games let you host your own servers?"
},
{
"body": "You are entirely ignoring couch-gaming, which is the most original form and often most convenient form for multiple players to play. \n\nConsoles have major benefits in that front. They are often plug-and-play, thus suitable to less tech-savy users, younger audiences, more casual players etc. They also are made to be integrated with TV-set, and have no expected use outside of it, for example work-usage which may affect their placing in the house. That's why you often find consoles placed next to the most comfortable areas, as they serve no work purpose.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Agreed. Also, you're playing against someone with same hardware as yours which adds to fairness imo.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Oh shit, I misred ur point :D I thought you were arguing against consoles :D"
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "Agreed. Equal playing field, significantly less cheaters"
},
{
"body": "OP, if you are realizing there was an oversight on your end, then someone likely enlightened you to that oversight. You should be awarding delta(s)."
},
{
"body": "Ok"
},
{
"body": "Since you play FPS primary, it's worth pointing out that all the best FPS players are using mouse and keyboard. It's far more precise when it comes to aiming. Even with aim-assist, a good KBM player will clown on an equally skilled controller player. The fact that controller users even NEED aim assist should be all you need to know. Like it or not, PC is where the competive scene is.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Apparently aim assist is so strong in some modern games that controller players actually have a heavy advantage (which is really sad). I believe COD is the prime example."
}
]
},
{
"body": "You could play on official servers, that have anticheat, or play on unofficial ones that ban cheaters permanently. You could also live in a box all day, and be safer, but that doesnt mean you should live in a box everyday. Consoles are a pretty raw deal. I cant even really get into console games. Its like going back to being a potato farmer or something."
},
{
"body": "If discord didn't exist maybe"
},
{
"body": "Is your CMW *strictly* because of cheating?\n\nWhile there's compelling arguments posted already, I'd argue the exact opposite for a couple reasons. (Besides what is already stated; there's no subscription, someone who uses a mouse/keyword is more than likely going to perform **a lot** better than someone with a controller which while it's not \"cheating\" is certainly a huge advantage)\n\nThe biggest thing for me is that multiplayer on PC means you can multi-task/have a superior experience with Discord and the like. You edited to mention that you exclusively play FPS, but for *any* other multiplayer experience, having a second screen/wide monitor to pull up maps/skill trees, share you screen on the fly, makes the experience a lot better for virtually *any* other multiplayer genre.\n\nLike I've been playing BG3 on PC with a group and being able to quick share my screen, pull up skill trees, type in chat quickly if I want to specifically want to ask a party member something without cumbersomely trying to 'whisper' to them, makes the experience so much better.\n\nAlso if you're a real FPS enthusiast, you can crank insane FPS/refresh rates on PC, making the experience even better; and again while you can plug in a mouse/keyboard, most people playing on console are most likely 'couch playing,' and this is inconvenient at best.\n\nThere's a reason you don't have any eSports players on console. (I could be wrong about this, but I don't think I've ever seen a PS5/Xbox eSports team)"
},
{
"body": "I'm surprised nobody has brought this up, but in Overwatch at least, Console has a huge problem with XIMmers who use a device that allows them to spoof being on a controller while actually using M&K. I hardly ever run into cheaters on PC, but ximming on console is apparently rampant and almost everybody in the top ranks does it."
},
{
"body": "Without crossplay turned on, I have to wait for eternity to find a game (PUBG, Apex, etc.). With \n crossplay, you play against cheaters + those who use MnK. Even without crossplay, there are ways to cheat on a console. \n\nMy multiplayer experience is definitely worse on consoles than on PC."
},
{
"body": "Let's give a few solid reasons.\n\nCheating - a basic cheat detection software works for the most part. And they aren't common. In 400 hours of CS I've run into two. While cheating is less prevalent on consoles, it's not a major issue on PC\n\nGame availability - I'm not talking about indie, just all the PC exclusive multiplayer games like CS, LoL, DOTA2, etc. \n\nInput - Controllers suck for 2 reasons. They are just too small. I get hand cramps from them, and if you have to horrifically contort your hand for certain games. I basically have to Claw grip to play elden ring. It sucks. A PC has a nice wide shoulder width stance for your arms and mice come in all shapes and sizes to perfectly fit your hands. Also mice are more fun for FPS than controllers.\n\nOnline - you have to pay to play your game online. \n\nPlaying with friends - full Discord functionality on PC\n\nVoice - we can use push to talk without needing to buy a foot pedal or some shit. Whenever I play cross play games I just have to turn off voice because every other person is listening to their music over God damn speakers with a their mic just sitting there hot, blasting out the rest of our ears. While also listening to them bitch at their girlfriend for something or other. God I hate hot mic. \n\nThose are just the ones off the top of my head."
},
{
"body": "I might be neutral this issue if it were not for the versatility of the PC.\n\nMany games that are \"pretty good\" can become amazing games with the help of mods from the community, but his luxury of upgrading kinda ok games into fantastic games is limited to non consoles afaik.\n\nI had a bug/glitch problem on PS4 Madden 21 that they never did fix, and I did ask. If such a problem were to happen on the PC version they are selling again these years, I would likely have been able to fix it myself, or with the help of other tech savvy gamers.\n\nSpeaking of madden, the last time I played the pc version you could edit uniforms, create entire new teams, and even create your own plays to run, but not on the console. Developers simply can't fit as many features into a console game. This is not always the case but is true for many games. \n\nI felt sorry for the people that were crossplaying a recent game I played, they couldn't download a community mod that patched several broken features and the developers just weren't on top of it. PC players were directed to the community fix and had access to these features.\n\nI feel like consoles are locked down, and PC's are free roaming, if that makes sense as a metaphor. I suck at metaphors.\n\nHave a great day, happy gaming!"
},
{
"body": "Something worth pointing out is that many multiplayer games that get ported to console get abandoned eventually. Either explicitly when they state that the development will only move forward with pc\n\nOr implicitly when they update the engine or graphics to the point where a generation of consoles can't handle it"
},
{
"body": "Consoles probably do make the barrier of entry for cheating higher.\n\nIs that really worth it not having a mouse? Which is essential to most multiplayer games?"
}
]
}