{
"post": {
"title": "Games with deep gem-slotting / weapon modification mechanics?",
"selftext": "I'm familiar with some of the more well known systems like Diablo and FF7. But surely there are games I haven't played with more complex systems than those games?\n\nI ask because I'm making a roguelite that uses a gem slotting-like system as a main mechanic for modifying weapons and the player skillset. I'm looking at two directions:\n\n1. Blank-slate system where each gem carries abilities/modifiers. The player links them together in chains to alter the properties of weapons and the abilities. Only some top-level characteristics of weapons are fixed (e.g. shotgun is slow but shoots multiple projectiles). Potentially really complex, like Noita wands. \n2. Skill-tree-like system where the slots themselves define the ability/modifiers, and these slots are fixed to the weapon. Gems are placed in the slots to activate them and carry minor modifiers (activation level, stat boosts).\n\nThe first option felt really cool to me, but I worry that it will be hard to teach to the player and game-design around. The second option is much better for making weapons feel differentiated, but could discourage swapping weapons often during your run (you could re-use the slotted gems in a new weapon, but its abilities might not synergize with your build).\n\nAnyway - I'd be interested to hear about games with gem mechanics that are anything like this and other examples of interesting weapon modification mechanics!",
"url": "https://www.reddit.com/r/gamedesign/comments/11r7e8x/games_with_deep_gemslotting_weapon_modification/"
},
"comments": [
{
"body": "If you haven't looked at path of exile, it's probably a good example with their skill and support gems.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Oh wow, yeah their system is pretty much exactly like what I was thinking of initially (was even calling them 'action stones' and 'support stones' in my case).\n\nLooking at how complex PoE's system is really clarifies why it's probably not the right choice for my game. The coolest thing about it is how there can be such specific modifiers to certain skill types. But in a roguelite game with shorter independent runs it's punishing to get modifiers you can't use. Designing such an intricate system would probably take up too much time for an indie game, too.\n\nSome of the concepts behind their modifiers could still be really useful in weapon skill trees though.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "I haven't looked into it much, but I've seen people mention that undecember had a simpler but similar system.\n\nI wouldn't give up on the idea though, maybe just simplify it. Like what if skills were tired directly to your weapon, and you could find support stones to modify them?\n\nYou could also make the support stones very generic like \"multi stone\" or \"giant stone\" which could change the effect based on what skill they are affecting. Like multi could give multiple projectiles or make melee attacks strike multiple times. Since it's a roguelike people won't expect detailed explanations for each thing they pick up, and can figure it out through trial and error.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Looks cool, I like how it appears you can lay out the action runes on a grid and share the supporting runes. Lots more ideas for modifiers in the rune list too.\n\nI didn't want to bore people with the details of my game but one thing I might have mentioned is that it's an FPS with both guns and melee weapons. Being quite different from most games that use gem slotting, it seems harder to make a cohesive system of support gems that target specific types of abilities. But a scaled back version that applies stat modifiers on top of skill trees seems like a good compromise."
}
]
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "Disgaea, a tactical RPG, has a system that is both fairly simple and very involved. Each item in the game can be \"entered\" by the player, acting as a seed for 30 to 100 procedurally generated maps. The player progresses through these maps, and comes upon enemies who represent Specialists. If the specialists are defeated, they become \"unlocked\", increasing in power and becoming movable between items as well as combinable with the same type to make one high-level specialist. These specialists are effectively gems, giving you a boost to a particular stat on that item.\n\nFurthermore, the specialists present (although not their level) determine bonus attributes added to the item every ten levels when an item boss is defeated. Thus an optimal item world run involves defeating all present Specialists before level 10, moving any you don't want out of that item, adding in the ones you do want, and taking the item all the way to level 100 for the maximum baked-in stats, and then reassigning Specialists so you have high level ones present in the stats you are concerned with.\n\nThe end result of this process can give you items that are ludicrously stronger than the \"base\" item you originally had. And by ludicrously I mean like thousands of times.\n\nBecause you can additionally find good items *in* the item world and then do the same thing with *those*, this process generates its own gameplay loop while adding a massive amount of item customizability and increase in power. The item world system basically gave you ten times the game, and in my view is the reason Disgaea stands above all other tactical RPGs.\n\nI'll note this falls into your type 1 definition. Base item properties remain (what kind of weapon or item it is, what ways you can use it), but the numeric attributes are greatly within your control.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "That's a wild system! It would be a pretty interesting fit in a roguelite that wanted to use something like these Specialists for a deep metaprogression system. My preference in roguelites is usually just light metaprogression, otherwise it can feel like a grind to me. But it sounds like this system adds a ton of strategic depth to the levelling process.\n\nI also looked up the Specialist types in Disgaea and what they can do - some very neat ideas there!"
}
]
},
{
"body": "From what I've seen out there the gems are usually a slight bonus, instead of doing what you're talking about.\n\nWorld of Warcraft would grant specific bonuses on an item if you used the correct gems in the correct slots (ie: you would gain a bonus attribute if you used 2 red and 1 yellow). GoW 2018 and Ragnarok used Runes, but did the same thing as gems. Herizon uses \"coils\". \n\nPersonally I really liked how Diablo 2 used Runes. Each Rune individually had a bonus (+att, +mana, +resistance, etc), but if you combined certain runes together you would create Runewords on your gear, and would give your items special names that gained special/secret bonus traits (ie: combine 3 specific runes in a certain order, and then you gain their attributes +extra skill levels and other bonuses).\n\nIf you want to make an interesting gemming system, my suggestion is to make weapons have \"tree-like\" systems, where you can have branches that are chained together, or have multiple branches to combine different skillset. The bonuses you give to each branch could:\n\n* If the user uses all similar-style bonuses (ie: all +att, or elemental damage), then after 3 consecutive gems gains an additional modifier to the same group.\n* Create a \"secret list\" of combinations where if the user gems their equipment in a specific order, they gain additional bonuses (ie: +att > +def > +res = all 3, plus extra hit)\n* Make Legendary gems that will grant \"super bonuses\" when combined with others, but useless by themselves. Something like: doubles all bonuses in this chain; or double-cast spells (FF7 had it setup where you could double-cast summons for free, and then double that again that you could essentially get 4 summons for one summon action); or reduce costs of usage, etc.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Really nice examples. Yeah the Rune system in Diablo is something I've looked closely at. I'm kinda torn on 'hidden' mechanics like these. I think ideally they are intuitively discoverable by the player and not something you're more likely to look up in a guide. So I think gems that function like your last point are preferable - the player can logically determine which combos of bonus mechanics are strong together.\n\nThe tree-like system is definitely where I'm heading - gives flexibility to the player's build but also keeps weapons feeling unique. Thanks for the ideas to make slotting those trees interesting!"
}
]
},
{
"body": "I’d actually go with the Cooldown On a Trigger method.\n\nEach slotted effect comes with an automatically triggering ability that has a flat amount of damage or bonus.\n\nIt could be something like “Deal life stealing damage when you touch an enemy, 6s cooldown” or “killing an enemy while they’re near you gives you a shield that depletes over time, 10s cooldown”.\n\nThese not only function regardless of the item you equip them to, but they also encourage weapon swapping for maximum efficiency.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "I like it. I was thinking about cooldowns on relics (passive item abilities) but putting those triggers+cooldowns on gems is also cool. Definitely can imagine some neat synergies and encouraging swapping is fun like you mentioned.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Thanks!\n\nI kinda stole the idea from God of War. The second one in particular uses a lot of gear effects that add more \"game\" for the player to learn and master (like making a charge up attack deflect missiles while charging)."
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "Path of exile, you’re asking about path of exile. Maybe not 100% what you’re looking for, but it’s pretty darn close"
},
{
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},
{
"body": "It Lurks Below is an indie 2d sidescrolling action rpg (on Steam) that uses gem slotting.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "I see, they're called crystals right? Good to see another example, seems quite similar to Diablo which makes sense, looks like a former Diablo dev made the game."
}
]
}
]
}