{
"post": {
"title": "skill gems, why would you not level them?",
"selftext": "watching a few higher level players and streams etc, they use lvl 1 skill gems for certain gems. im just wondering the thought process and why its a common thing. im pretty noob so tips are great.",
"url": "https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/1u9crk/skill_gems_why_would_you_not_level_them/"
},
"comments": [
{
"body": "* **Mana Cost**: Lower level gems cost less mana. For example, level 5 spectral throw costs 8 mana, changing it to level 6 makes it cost 9 mana. For attack skills, leaving it at a low level is fine because damage mainly comes from the weapon. This does not usually apply for spell abilities because leveling spell gems is a requirement in order to improve damage.\n* **Gear Requirements**: +Stats from gear can make it so that on gear removal, the gem's stat requirements make it no longer usable. So, you may want to keep the gem at a level where the stat requirements do not cause an issue if you remove +stats gear.\n* **Cast When Damage Taken**: Lower level means less damage taken needed to cast skills linked to the support. Cast when damage taken can only support skills that have the same level requirement.\n",
"replies": [
{
"body": "What are the main gems that do NOT require lvl up? \n\nSo far you guys listed Clarity, Leap Slam, Cast When Damage Taken, Detonate Dead, Mana Leech, Blood Rage.\n\nAnything else?",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Most people who use arctic armor do not fully level it."
},
{
"body": "if you are an elemental wander, power siphon"
}
]
},
{
"body": "In addition, basicly every ele build can keep attacks at lower level because the %phys dmg doesnt really scale and the manacost gets quite high once you 5/6 link something cause its multiplicative to the base mana.\nA lvl 5 Spectral Throw costs 8 mana, does 12% increased phys dmg.\nA lvl 20 Spectral Throw costs 11 mana, does 57% increased phys dmg, which doesnt scale when you play an elemental build.\nThe manacost gets so much higher, while on paper it just looks like 3 more mana per hit, when you multiply it by all the support gems, it might make quite a big deal tho.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Spectral throws level up is projectile damage btw nothing to do with physical damage.\n\nEdit: words"
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "Clarity has more mana reserved as you level it up, so leaving it at a lower level is generally preferable (I've seen most be at ~lvl 3 but some are level 1 or 2)",
"replies": [
{
"body": "I made the mistake of hitting the + button every time my Clarity was ready to level and by my mid-60s I couldn't keep both it and Discipline up and still cast spells. Had to get another Clarity gem and get it up to the point where it was useful but not crippling.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Also, right click that + button to dismiss it (accessible under the inventory screen)"
},
{
"body": "Future advice: There's a vendor recipe where you add in one scouring and a skill gem and it gives you back that skill gem 1 level lower.\n\nFor Example: Level 11 Clarity + Scouring Orb = Level 10 Clarity",
"replies": [
{
"body": "but when going down more than 1 or two skill levels its generally not worth it save for expensive skills",
"replies": [
{
"body": "That's true, just something to keep in mind."
}
]
},
{
"body": "oh fuck that makes me so happy right now, I have a couple other gems that need to come down a level or two for mana pool reasons."
},
{
"body": "Wow thanks mate. Didn't know that :D"
}
]
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "Is there like... a list of what I should or shouldn't level or what level I should keep certain gems? Or is that all build dependent?",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Thats up to yourself. Look on what people have mention in this threat and make a judgment call. "
},
{
"body": "Seconded."
}
]
},
{
"body": "Main reason to keep a gem low level is for the lower mana cost. Some gems have a good utility/movement effect and the only thing they gain by leveling them up is damage, which often isn't the objective of using a particular gem.\n\nFor example Lightning Warp costs more mana and does more damage as you level it up, but most people just want it for the teleport effect, so if you're playing a build with a limited mana pool it may be more effective for you to keep it at level 1 so that you can spam it more without running low on mana, since the added damage isn't your intended use for it.\n\nAnother thing to consider is TIME taken to level a gem, particularly in a case where you have a gem at level 20, and you could trade it in to the vendor with a GCP to get back a level 1 gem with 20% quality. Now in all cases having a 20% quality gem is \"better\" than having a non-quality gem, but it also takes a sizable time investment to rank the gem back upto level 20, so you have to consider if the effect you're getting from the quality is worth the time it will take to get the gem back to level 20. In the case of something like an Aura gem such as Grace, you would be getting increased AoE radius on your gem but losing a lot of Evasion until you could rank it back upto 20. If you primarily play solo, it wouldn't really be worth getting the extra AoE radius since it wouldn't do anything for your solo play and you'd be temporarily weaker while you were leveling the gem back upto 20. \n\nOn the other hand a gem like Faster Attacks gets an extra 10% attack speed for being 20% quality, so the 'breakpoint' for getting a q20 Faster Attacks equal to a q0 level 20 Faster Attacks is level 10 - that is to say, a level 10 Q20% Faster Attacks is the same bonus to attack speed as a level 20 Q0% Faster Attacks. In this case it is ABSOLUTELY worth reducing it to level 1 in exchange for the Q20% as you can get it back to rank 10 in about 30 minutes of play. \n",
"replies": [
{
"body": "> For example Lightning Warp costs more mana and does more damage as you level it up, but most people just want it for the teleport effect, so if you're playing a build with a limited mana pool it may be more effective for you to keep it at level 1 so that you can spam it more without running low on mana, since the added damage isn't your intended use for it.\n\nThis is bad advice. Lightning Warp gains *Reduced Duration* as you level it up which makes the travel time far shorter. It is generally a gem you DO want to level up, especially since it almost always is paired with the Reduced Duration support gem.\n\nA better example would be Leap Slam. That one gains little benefit from levels if you aren't using it for damage.\n",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Also whirling blades"
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "Honestly there isn't much of a reason unless you are doing mana reservations on skills. Some skills take up a portion of your mana permanently. Skills like haste take up 50% of your total mana regardless of level unless you lower the reservation cost with passives. For instance with mana mastery you can get a 12% increased mana reservation reduction and bring 50% down to 44.64%. With high enough mana and mana Regen you can reserve most of your mana for buffs while still having near basically infinite casting.\n\nMost people go for damage and defense with only enough mana for their equipped gems.\n\nAlso you may run into this with items that give +(number) to all attributes but sometimes all you need for a gem to level up is higher stats, especially if you are above the gem's level threshold. As an example, I have a gem that requires my character to be level 44 to level up, however if my stats don't meet the minimum value for the higher level gem it won't level until I get higher stats. In this case my stats are more than double so the gem will automatically level when my character hits level 44.\n\nAs for why people run around with lower level gems I don't really see a point in it because the higher level also makes the ability stronger, as I said before though if you can get your mana regen high enough you can basically cast anything infinitely... So get creative. You can play however you want.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Thanks for the reply. Very detailed answer. Just wondering how did you find this post I made 10 years ago lol? Sometimes I run lower lvl marks because mark on hit can burn my mana pool and I want enough mana so cwdt or automation will cast my defensive. Lower lvl cwdt procs faster but can only support certain skill lvl depending on its level.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "I was searching for specific details on how the exp bar for the gem's work and your post was the first to pop up lol. I've played games where the skills level up based on total number of uses and was curious if it was similar or connected to the exp you earn normally. It wasn't what I was looking for but I found it to be an interesting post.\n\nAlso I'm playing on wizard/mage so mass mana Regen is important for spamming skills. Luckily most of the skills even when leveled have been within my Regen range so even when I use an ability it fills back up almost instantly letting me just hold buttons down to rapid cast.\n\nI've only been playing for about a week but have already made it to level 50, sorta went in a little blind but had experience with D2 and other similar games so I picked it up pretty quick.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Cool cool, well if u didn't find put gems passively earn exp while killing mobs, if you wanna level them quick get an ashes of the stars amulet. I can give you one if you need but not sure about when I'll be on."
}
]
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "Depends on the gem, but here's a few:\n\nMana Leech: The mana leech rate is capped at 12.5% of your maximum mana per second. For someone with a low mana pool, say 400, that means the fastest they can regenerate mana from leech is 50 mana per second. This is really low, and hitting this cap is easily achieved with just 1% mana leech (5000 dps in this case), which is what the level 1 mana leech gem is. There's no benefit to leveling it higher.\n\nCast When Damage Taken: This is a more common gem kept at level 1. The reason is because at higher levels, the damage threshold for it to trigger is increased, making it proc less often. The drawback to keeping it at level 1, however, is that it can only cast supported spells at or below *required* level 31 (The actual gem level will vary per gem). So it's a trade-off.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Why wouldn't you still continue to level reduced mana? It wouldn't cost any extra mana considering its a support gem multiplier? And at lvl 20 you can convert to a 20% gem anyways... just saying",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Well in my case, it's 11% quality and I'd rather keep it at level 1 so I can swap it around my other characters without worrying about level requirements. But there's no inherit downside to leveling it anyway. A higher level Mana Leech will leech more mana than a lower one, it just won't affect the leech rate any.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "That is why he was saying you get it to 20 then make it a 20% quality gem then you can leave it at level one or even a couple levels higher because of the quality effect",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Yeah I get what he was saying, its just not ideal for me right now because it would take too long to level. I will eventually level it."
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "Just wanted to clarify that he talks about mana leech and you talk about reduced mana:)",
"replies": [
{
"body": "That's what I meant apples oranges I know. Still remains the same. Mana multiplier same at lvl one as it is lvl 20."
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "You should level mana leech. It is a support gem and doesnt increase in cost as it levels. Eventually at gem level 20 you can use the vendor recipe of 1 GCP + lvl 20 mana leech to convert it to a 20% quality lvl 1 which gives +20% increased mana leech rate.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "You said the same thing as the other reply. I get that. But leveling it increases the level requirement to use it, and I currently swap it between the different characters I play. It's an 11% quality gem, and I'm leveling a 0% quality in an unused slot."
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "Depends on the gem. Cast when damage taken has drawbacks to lvling it (requires you to take more dmg); movement gems don't usually need to be lvled (leap slam/whirling blades); or maybe they just don't have the attributes to keep lvling the gem up. I'm sure there are more cases than this."
},
{
"body": "1 reason is for triggering supported spells almost every time you get hit. For example, a level 1 \"cast when damage taken\" gem triggers the supported spells at 440 hp damage, whereas a higher level gem would take upwards of 1k+ just to trigger them. "
},
{
"body": "Detonate Dead has no point in leveling it."
},
{
"body": "Blood Rage starts getting really painful the more you level it up. I wish I'd left it at a low level.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Blood rage actually uses less life per second as you level it up. It is more likely your chaos resist became negative as you moved up in difficulty.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "It starts at 30% of your total life and ends at 50%. And yeah, Chaos Resist is a bitch to deal with, so moving into merciless basically made me give it up."
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "Question: since I can socket any gem to an item, why not socket all available spots with the gem for them to level up?? Does that method take away from my experience I get per kill?"
},
{
"body": "Honestly there isn't much of a reason unless you are doing mana reservations on skills. Some skills take up a portion of your mana permanently. Skills like haste take up 50% of your total mana regardless of level unless you lower the reservation cost with passives. For instance with mana mastery you can get a 12% increased mana reservation reduction and bring 50% down to 44.64%. With high enough mana and mana Regen you can reserve most of your mana for buffs while still having near basically infinite casting.\n\nMost people go for damage and defense with only enough mana for their equipped gems.\n\nAlso you may run into this with items that give +(number) to all attributes but sometimes all you need for a gem to level up is higher stats, especially if you are above the gem's level threshold. As an example, I have a gem that requires my character to be level 44 to level up, however if my stats don't meet the minimum value for the higher level gem it won't level until I get higher stats. In this case my stats are more than double so the gem will automatically level when my character hits level 44.\n\nAs for why people run around with lower level gems I don't really see a point in it because the higher level also makes the ability stronger, as I said before though if you can get your mana regen high enough you can basically cast anything infinitely... So get creative. You can play however you want."
},
{
"body": "Cast on damage taken for example:\nEach level increases damage... great?!\nEach level increases the damage it needs to trigger => triggers less.\nSame principle wit mana reg aura: \nEach level increases manareg AND the mana reserved. Now... you have 300 mana and your main spell costs 100. If the aura reserves 201 mana ... ur fukt",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Makes sense"
}
]
}
]
}