{
"post": {
"title": "Relative Effective Damage Increases for Melee Skill Gems",
"selftext": "Keep in mind! This is increase in damage at gem level 20 ***relative to what they were previously in 3.24***. This does not completely reflect the true power of a skill, but rather how much you can expect the damage to be improved at a baseline.\n\n**ON AVERAGE, most skills got a 2x multiplier to their damage effectiveness from their previous damage effectiveness in 3.24.**\n\nSkills of Note!\n\nHighest Damage effectiveness increases:\n\n1. Pestilent Strike: 2.95 increase. flat was removed, but they gave this skill almost 3 times it's scaling\n2. Strike and Double Strike of Impaling: 2.92 multiplier to damage effectiveness. unsure why double strike got a lot of love, but it did.\n3. Lacerate of Haemorrhaging: 2.88 multiplier\n4. Perforate of Bloodshed: 2.88 multiplier.\n\nSeems bleed melee skills got some particular love in damage increases.\n\nLowest Damage effectiveness increase:\n\n1. Rage Vortex and Rage Vortex of Bezerking: 1.12 multiplier. relatively small, but may be due to it's high uptime and new double rate scaling\n\nLet me know if there is anything interesting in this data!\n\nFlat data, updated using hypernegus's data, to reflect more accurate calculations.\n\n old eff new eff flat removed multiplied from previous leagues\n skill \n Pestilent Strike 160% 472% True 2.95\n Double Strike 140% 409% True 2.92\n Double Strike of Impaling 140% 409% False 2.92\n Lacerate of Haemorrhage 120% 346% True 2.88\n Perforate of Bloodshed 85% 245% True 2.88\n Frenzy of Onslaught 135% 353% False 2.61\n Lacerate 154% 393% True 2.55\n Viper Strike of the Mamba 154% 392% True 2.54\n Viper Strike 154% 392% True 2.54\n Sweep 281% 664% True 2.36\n Perforate of Duality 265% 622% True 2.34\n Perforate 265% 622% True 2.34\n Chain Hook 169% 393% False 2.32\n Glacial Hammer of Shattering 269% 622% True 2.31\n Glacial Hammer 269% 622% True 2.31\n Infernal Blow 166% 377% True 2.27\n Infernal Blow of Immolation 166% 377% True 2.27\n Blade Flurry 49% 111% True 2.26\n Boneshatter of Carnage 275% 620% False 2.25\n Charged Dash 121% 264% False 2.18\n Cleave 237% 511% True 2.15\n Reave of Refraction 250% 534% False 2.13\n Reave 250% 534% False 2.13\n Vigilant Strike 350% 745% False 2.12\n Leap Slam 150% 314% False 2.09\n Whirling Blades 150% 314% False 2.09\n Earthshatter of Fragility 150% 314% False 2.09\n Double Strike of Momentum 95% 196% False 2.06\n Leap Slam of Groundbreaking 320% 660% False 2.06\n Earthshatter of Prominence 170% 346% False 2.03\n Lightning Strike 225% 456% True 2.02\n Lacerate of Butchering 310% 629% False 2.02\n Ground Slam of Earthshaking 340% 688% False 2.02\n Blade Flurry of Incision 49% 99% True 2.02\n Sunder of Earthbreaking 250% 503% False 2.01\n Tectonic Slam 275% 542% False 1.97\n Tectonic Slam of Cataclysm 240% 472% False 1.96\n Earthshatter 200% 393% False 1.96\n Flicker Strike of Power 210% 408% False 1.94\n Flicker Strike 210% 408% False 1.94\n Bladestorm 150% 291% False 1.94\n Sunder 325% 629% False 1.93\n Bladestorm of Uncertainty 180% 347% False 1.92\n Dominating Blow 238% 458% False 1.92\n Dominating Blow of Inspiring 238% 458% False 1.92\n Ground Slam 188% 356% False 1.89\n Lightning Strike of Arcing 200% 377% True 1.88\n Cyclone 59% 111% True 1.88\n Cyclone of Tumult 59% 111% True 1.88\n Volcanic Fissure 185% 344% False 1.85\n Static Strike 188% 346% False 1.84\n Molten Strike of the Zenith 130% 239% False 1.83\n Ice Crash of Cadence 250% 458% False 1.83\n Frost Blades of Katabasis 225% 409% False 1.81\n Frost Blades 225% 409% True 1.81\n Consecrated Path 230% 417% False 1.81\n Dual Strike 244% 442% False 1.81\n Smite 273% 488% False 1.78\n Molten Strike 185% 329% True 1.77\n Heavy Strike 313% 552% False 1.76\n Ice Crash 350% 611% False 1.74\n Wild Strike 231% 403% False 1.74\n Volcanic Fissure of Snaking 185% 318% False 1.71\n Cleave of Rage 300% 511% False 1.70\n Consecrated Path of Endurance 180% 305% False 1.69\n Shattering Steel 159% 265% True 1.66\n Shattering Steel of Ammunition 159% 265% True 1.66\n Lancing Steel 106% 175% True 1.65\n Lancing Steel of Spraying 220% 360% True 1.63\n Splitting Steel of Ammunition 210% 330% True 1.57\n Splitting Steel 210% 330% True 1.57\n Earthquake 150% 229% False 1.52\n Earthquake of Amplification 150% 229% False 1.52\n Infernal Cry 158% 234% False 1.48\n Smite of Divine Judgement 250% 369% False 1.47\n Dual Strike of Ambidexterity 244% 360% False 1.47\n Wild Strike of Extremes 240% 328% False 1.36\n Frozen Legion of Rallying 135% 184% False 1.36\n Boneshatter 250% 338% False 1.35\n Boneshatter of Complex Trauma 250% 338% False 1.35\n Puncture 165% 205% True 1.24\n Toxic Rain of Sporeburst 85% 102% True 1.20\n Frozen Legion 281% 332% False 1.18\n Rage Vortex 62% 70% False 1.12\n Rage Vortex of Berserking 62% 70% False 1.12 ",
"url": "https://www.reddit.com/r/PathOfExileBuilds/comments/1e6rigq/relative_effective_damage_increases_for_melee/"
},
"comments": [
{
"body": ">Frenzy: literally no change from the previous league.\n\nThat's because it's no longer a melee skill.\n\n>The Frenzy Skill Gem now requires a Bow or Wand, while Frenzy of Onslaught requires a Melee Weapon or Unarmed.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Thanks for catching that, edited the post to not mention that as something important. All this patch note data is frying my brain"
},
{
"body": "The one change I dislike. I remember using it when I was having downtime on flicker leaguestarts to boost charges back up. That'll be a problem now, especially with raider deleted and moving the charge gen to a mostly bow-baser ascendancy, deadeye.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Don't bother with deadeye's frenzy charges for flicker. It's \"Gain a frenzy charge each second **while moving**\". You're considered stationary while flickering, so it won't really work.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Yeah easy, league start Flicker Strike is dead for SSF. Still viable in trade via Terminus Est.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "You can flicker with absolutely nothing in my experience. Flicker quality, sword mastery, mark mastery brings you right past the break point of 33% (25+10+8=43). In my experience this will hold you even charges but struggle to gain charges from zero so it works best with a large amount of frenzy charges so bad rng doesn't screw you on single target. You can also throw poachers mark on to make it easier"
}
]
}
]
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "I don't see Shield crush in your list, unless I'm blind af",
"replies": [
{
"body": "shield crush doesn't really get the same effectiveness because how it scales off shield Armour and evasion. it would need a little more work and some different calculation to look at it's increase",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Doesn't it benefit's a lot from new quality behaviour ?",
"replies": [
{
"body": "oh absolutely, which is more reason why the calculation would be more complicated that the other gems",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Shield Crush got a Gigabuff.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "for reference, it got more flat damage than the original release pushed gem and they returned the 8-12 scaling, its going to utterly pump things, there was a reason they nerfed the gem in the first place, people were smashing bosses on 0 budget with minimal essence investment, Im probably starting Shield crush Glad until the real broken builds emerge. In addition the original release of the gem got nerfed before precise technique was introduced, so thats a massive 40% more modifier to all that flat, because the real struggle was never getting the flat, it was being able to get enough increase and more to pump things.....and then gladiator gives you 100% more vs ubers and big bosses. Its going to literally explode things.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Why glad and not jug? Block cap?",
"replies": [
{
"body": "yeah just budget considerations for the first week of the league."
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "Not really, about 70% more damage with a 2500 armor/ev shield, not considering anything else. Which isn't that much relative to what other skills received.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Its quite easy to get it to 10-20m so it will be a viable league starter. With top gear you can get 50-60m dps with supersolid defense. So its a A-Tier skill for sure now.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Well I'm sure you can - I'm just saying that it didn't receive a \"gigabuff\". Some skills received 150%+ more damage. 70% is on the lower end of buffs."
}
]
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "The other gems benefits the same way from quality."
}
]
}
]
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "[deleted]",
"replies": [
{
"body": "lacerate of butchering might be interesting, it did not have any flat damage to begin with but loss of attack speed from rage might make the 40% attack speed feel real bad"
},
{
"body": "> The problem is that you're still only showing whether flat damage was removed, not how much they actually had.\n\nBut all things considered, this change will also make all the other sources of added flat damage more meaningful than it used to be."
},
{
"body": "I'm looking for an AoE around yourself type of Melee skill as I haven't played Melee in years, and I don't want to play slams, so Sweep is the first thing that comes to mind for me. The effectiveness got a really good bonus but it's also one of those that lost the 75-113 flat phys so I'm skeptical of the real damage increase it got.\n\nAt first glance the buffs feel really good, but at second glance it feels like at least 95% of melee skills are going to be dealing less damage than what they did with the totems, considering all the attack speed and things like that. And that's without taking into account the fact that you are going to be the one licking the mob's buttholes instead of your totems now."
}
]
},
{
"body": "Viper strike of the mamba really got buffed to the moon, since it wasn't benefiting from either totem.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "It lost a lot from the now missing flat damage though which would've been added to both your dual wielded weapons in the hit.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "You basically lost a support (added chaos damage) in order to get 154% more damage, and another 100% more damage from perfect agony change. So yeah, the final gain is around 276% more damage (assuming the loss of a 35% damage support), which is far more than anything else, especially if you count the loss of the totems."
}
]
},
{
"body": "I wonder what the best setup for it is with how the tincture change is. I ran it back with tinctures on a scuffed rebuke pathfinder and it was pretty insane for the limited currency I put into it. Like, there's Bino's/Pneumatic combo which would allow any ascendancy to use it, there's Multistrike/Sadism vs. longer duration DoT *(Potentially even with Ruthless if you're stone cold in counting to 3)*, Pathfinder w. Pneumatic or Warden with Rebukes. Perfect Agony is looking mighty spicy as well. Definitely cooking with this later, because it was probably one of my favourite clearing builds."
}
]
},
{
"body": "Are these the numbers when you minus for the flat being taken off most gems? i'm just wondering how much of an actual powerspike we got vs the percentile increases, because removing the flat is gonna make leveling a real chore.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Item quality being multiplicative helps on weapon at least but yeah, just play bonezone until you at least got a semi decent weapon.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Can you recommend a good 3.24 guide?",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Wait for a new one"
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "Phys recipe + quality will be more than enough during leveling. The fact that you 20% quality a weapon with a single whetstone is huge.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "While true, I will slightly caution that drop rates of quality currencies may have been adjusted with the quality changes"
}
]
},
{
"body": "Does not account for subtracted added damage from gems. I knew I forgot something important, that's on me because I threw this together quickly That really does change the equation, especially for one handed weapon skills\n\nAll of these are only at level 20.\n\nas for leveling, there is going to be a much stronger emphasis on good weapon rolls\n\nEdit: updated table with other user's data to indicate which one's had flat removed or not",
"replies": [
{
"body": "thanks, yeah alot of it is the typical GGG smoke and mirrors \"here this does triple damage effectiveness\" as they gut totems and added flat, like technically its not lies, but man when people load up these skills and they dont have a good weapon they are gonna feel betrayed real bad. \n\nOn a side note lacerate and its alt qualities look amazing for bleed builds, along with the passive node reworks bleed is going to slap hard.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Oh yea, the bleed trans gems got some serious work done to them. this is definitely the league to run bleed with from all the considerations they've done to it."
},
{
"body": "longing wasteful makeshift shelter gaping square berserk simplistic aloof hungry\n\n *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Campaign should feel the same if not better than before for most skills as you don’t have to worry about totems and you can get 20% quality from a single whetstone, so just do the vendor recipe every once in a while and you should be good."
}
]
},
{
"body": "shield crush login - they are buffing both the flat AND the scaling lol + the multiplicative quality stuff"
}
]
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "Patch notes claims that Lightning Strike is 163% in 3.24 but it is actually 225%. It's already one of the lowest multipliers, this will make it by far the lowest at 1.05",
"replies": [
{
"body": "They have just did correction to Lightning Strike.\n\n> \nOld:\n\n>Lightning Strike: No longer has Added Lightning Damage at all gem levels. It now has 198% Effectiveness of Base and Added Damage at gem level 1 (previously 135%), scaling up to 237% at gem level 20 (previously 163%). Now has a Mana cost of 6 at gem level 1, scaling up to 10 at gem level 20 (previously 6 at all gem levels)\n\n>New:\n\n>Lightning Strike: No longer has Added Lightning Damage at all gem levels. It now has 198% Effectiveness of Base and Added Damage at gem level 1 (previously 135%), scaling up to 456% at gem level 20 (previously 225%). Now has a Mana cost of 6 at gem level 1, scaling up to 10 at gem level 20 (previously 6 at all gem levels)"
},
{
"body": "Was about to comment this. I tested it in pob and on a LS champ pob, it drops the dps with like 6%. May be more because I’m not even accounting for unstoppable hero nerf."
}
]
},
{
"body": "Every attack that didn't see at least a 1.8x boost or relied on their flat damage are either neutral or worse off than before for league starting. The Covenant is how much added damage it would take to make the Cobra Lash changes neutral rather than a nerf no matter if you built it as poison or as a normal attack.\n\nFor example, Frost Blades saw an increase of 1.81x, but lost its flat damage. A level 21 Frost Blades had 81-122 flat added damage, and after its damage effectiveness, this meant it was adding 187-281 damage per attack. Multiplied by the 1.2x gain of Ancestral Protector and 1.32x gain of Vaal Ancestral Warchief, or a total of 1.584x, and the actual damage given by this flat added damage was 296-445 ~~per attack~~ damage per second (from Protector). Let's be kinder and pretend that Vaal Ancestral Warchief didn't exist. With nothing but a max Touch of Anguish, a level 21 Frost Blades, Ancestral Warchief and Protector you would see 1852 hit DPS.\n\n~~After the removal of both Ancestral Totems and the flat damage, it's at 2060 DPS, assuming 419% damage effectiveness for a level 21 skill gem. That's *just barely* higher than using Vaal Ancestral.~~ Nope, I edited the Lua wrong. It's 1450 DPS. Unless there's some tincture that makes cold damage the end-be-all element for damage, Frost Blades is *just* nerfed.\n\nThere's not a huge number of skills where this holds true, but there's also not a huge number of skills that are sufficiently over a 2x increase, either.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "There’s two things that I learned from doing the stats that you touched on so I’ll write my thoughts here\n\n1. Two handed builds got much more power than one handed from these changes. Most people running two handed weapons didn’t care much about the skill flat damage, so overall it will be much easier to get damage for them. Considering that they made changes to defenses for shields and dual wielding, it seems clear the intent was that one handed weapons are more defensive that two handed as a trade off\n2. Bleed and crit got some major emphasis. Along with the massive push on lacerate, perfect agony was changed to scale with crit multi, and new bleed nodes further increase crit. Bleed may be one of the stronger archetypes especially with gladiator and it’s massive block nodes",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Anything physical based is an exception to the above, but pure phys builds were in an abhorrent state compared to before and I probably should have mentioned that.\n\nBleed will return to being an exceptional league starter. I'm seeing ~4x bleed damage and bleed capped out around ~1.5m before. 4-6m is plenty for league start damage."
}
]
},
{
"body": "Thanks, that puts things into perspective. As a fan of Frost Blades, I will still start with it just because it is (or at least used to be) very cheap. Although as I used both totems, this would be a net loss in damage, only benefit is that this damage will always be there and not only during bosses when totems are plaecd. Maybe banners will be able to compensate.\n\nAlso, Hatred got its more multiplier removed which nerfs my build even more.",
"replies": [
{
"body": ">Also, Hatred got its more multiplier removed which nerfs my build even more.\n\nI ran the #'s a bit more, It's much worse than I initially thought. Check my latest comment. I would not league start a cold attack build.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Yeah, Hatred was dumped, but maybe I’ll consider running defensive auras instead.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "It's not so much that *just* Hatred was dumped as the actual DPS #'s are way lower unless you run invest into Marauder's area for rage generation and rage cap. In the same patch as they're buffing str-based melee, they're also dumping dex-based melee, which is really curious to me because dex-based melee was not in an amazing spot."
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "A 4 link vaal double strike is a good amount of added single target to the build boys you don't have totems. Though relying on a vaal skill obviously has drawbacks."
},
{
"body": "Yes, Frost Blades being nerfed post-patch notes release from 490% to 409%--or typo'd, I don't know which, *really* hurt it in the context of the Hatred change. I think there's fairly good logic for buffing it to 490% in the context of Reave. Reave and Frost Blades both have similar clear and single target, and have largely been balanced around each other for most of their lifetime. Most recently, in 3.7 Frost Blades gained flat damage, and Reave didn't catch back up until 3.13, and then the support gem apocalypse came just two leagues later in 3.15, which saw them made a bit more even. 3.20 saw Frost Blades buffed past Reave, and now 3.25 sees Reave buffed past Frost Blades.. but without the flat damage, there's a *giant* gap between them as opposed to a similar power level.\n\nI think the issue there is that Lightning Strike is being actively nerfed with these changes, and Molten Strike was never quite as good as Frost Blades or Lightning Strike, at least for clear, and there were always better options for single target. So it just kind of looks like a weird sort of favoritism to Frost Blades.\n\nI think I'll be league starting a Reave flaskfinder and FF/FFing Oath of Winter or Fury of Nature with the *still* very effective White Wind/Heatshiver/Expedition's End combo, and transitioning into a full cold convert eldritch glove. Glacial Hammer for potential single target is appealing, though the bases it's available on kind of suck. There's really only Frost Blades and Ice Shot for natively dex-based cold attacks... so it's kind of weird that Hatred was reworked to only be tangentially useful for them."
}
]
},
{
"body": "What about 1% additional critical chance on the Imperial Claw and 20% multiplicative damage for physical DPS? Also, we have rune crafting now and we don't have to worry about tedious totems anymore.",
"replies": [
{
"body": ">What about 1% additional critical chance on the Imperial Claw and 20% multiplicative damage for physical DPS?\n\nQuality is multiplicative to *local* weapon physical DPS. I specifically used Touch of Anguish because it has no Increased Physical Damage modifiers; it's all flat. The quality change has no effect on Touch of Anguish. In fact, it's arguably worse off as it's harder to make a 30% quality one now, as academic a difference as that is. Because there's no modifier it is multiplicative to, 20% Increased [local] Physical Damage (old quality) has the same effect as 20% More [local] Physical Damage (new quality).\n\nAs for the 1% critical strike chance, you're right; it was an oversight to not include it. However, upon rolling back my active dex skill gem .lua file for Path of Building, I realized I didn't quite edit Frost Blades 's data correctly. 419% damage effectiveness and no totems leaves a single Touch of Anguish with 9.8% critical strike chance and no passives at *1465* DPS, which is much lower. Banners, temporary buffs, or much more flat added damage is required to actually be better off than using totems before. I suspect GGG balanced the new skills with the assumption every attack build would be using rage. With rage, that comparison looks like 1904 DPS vs 1852 DPS. Dexterity builds don't have any way of really generating rage and Hatred was nerfed on top of that.\n\nWithout rage, the breakeven point for this only 1 claw equipped, no support gem, no aura, no passive skill example is somewhere around 550 PDPS off the weapon. That comparison will come down with attack speed sources and flat added damage elsewhere; but you will be worse off than before for quite a while.\n\nAs I said, skills that relied on the flat damage from the gem or weren't boosted by at least 1.8x were somewhat nerfed. This includes Frost Blades. If they had kept the 490% number, Frost Blades would be much better off closer to the campaign. 490% would have been a 2.1x buff, which would have compensated for Hatred.\n\nYes, with the Hatred changes, even [this 138m damage build](https://poe.ninja/builds/necropolis/character/WildMiklos/WildMNecropolis?type=exp&i=0&search=skills%3DFrost%2BBlades%26sort%3Ddps) is reduced to 111m DPS due to the overall changes. They'll need to add Rage or another temporary buff to see the same 138m DPS. Also, the added difficulty of making a 30% quality weapon really hurts enchants like this one. I suspect they'll change the enchants about a week or two into the league.\n\nI'm also not sure what temporary buff they *can* add; I think they're running them all already. Berserk, Call to Arms, and Enduring Cry also all got hit for this use case. I guess Blood Rage? I don't think there's any other way to read it. This is the highest level of investment and lost substantial amounts of damage.\n\n>Also, we have rune crafting now and we don't have to worry about tedious totems anymore.\n\nIt's true that the DPS is constant rather than relying on uptime. However, I also made it a point to not compare the old Vaal Ancestral Warchief in the DPS numbers as you're highly unlikely to get it during the campaign. My point was that the flat damage was specifically added to make league starting melee attacks easier; to give them a DPS source that came purely from gem levels. Unlike the stated intent of the original change, it also added a fairly substantial amount of DPS to mapping characters. Therefore, attacks which were not sufficiently boosted past ~1.75x in exchange for their flat damage removal will be weaker during the campaign."
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "Meanwhile you also need to consider the lack of 40% more attack speed from berserk/totem and then the % increase attack speed from rage. Most burst damage situations could abuse all 3. There were no compensations for attack speed, in fact removed in some scenarios. Idk how I feel about this.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "This was PoB warrior damage that was only really relevant for bursting down a boss in 5 seconds because you were hella overgeared for it to begin with. In practice you'd have very short Berserk uptime and using it made you rebuild Rage from scratch over the next half minute, and recasting totems that constantly die to AoE or have the boss move out of their range cost you a lot of time that can be spent attacking now. Both of these things are gone and Rage is now multiplicative instead of additive %damage on top of the much faster ramp and easier access. The new base damage is something you have 100% of the time and it benefits every single build regardless of investment."
},
{
"body": "You get 1% more damage per rage now, which is much more powerful than the 1% increased damage / 1% atk speed/5 rage. It is much more easily accessible and easier to ramp up to max rage. Berserk can give a 60% buff so it is not nothing. More damage is usually better for stuns/ailments than attack speed, it is also easier to sustain mana costs.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "The speed might FEEL bad though"
},
{
"body": "does \"atk damage\" mods scale ailments when it's coming from a skill?",
"replies": [
{
"body": "No"
},
{
"body": "berserk now has an ascedancy passive that grants ats per rage"
}
]
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "If we net the attack speed lost, buffs are not massive for most of them unless Im missing something",
"replies": [
{
"body": "It’s still massive for viperstrike of the mamba because that build doesn’t care about attack speed\n\nSame with bleed and ignite builds",
"replies": [
{
"body": "> hat build doesn’t care about attack speed\n\nIsn't the whole point to use sadism and still attack fast?",
"replies": [
{
"body": "that's one variation, yes. Losing sadism isn't bad, given the 2.54x buff."
},
{
"body": "That's one way of playing it. However, I think the optimal way of playing viperstrike of the mamba is through the use of ambush and the reworked perfect agony keystone. Ambush linked with second wind and some cdr from belt + boots will make this feel really good."
}
]
},
{
"body": "What bleed? The only buff is really to bleed EQ.\n\nIf crimson dance and aggravate don't work together like most people think - the only viable option is slam bleed. \n\nIf you want to play a crimson dance bleed build now you lost attack speed and the aggravate node on glad is useless. \n\n100% more damage node is pretty lame considering most classes have at least 15-30% more dmg on an ascendency node that is always up. \n\nCan't really use a shield and benefit from the block nodes in glad, in fact it nerfs your block if you have a shield.\n\nThe more I look into bleed and glad bleed it just looks pretty MEH.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "You entirely misunderstand the block node. Its only a nerf if your shield gives over 50 block, aka never."
},
{
"body": "Crimson dance caps out at 8 stacks. With base bleed duration of 5 seconds, why would you need a lot of attack speed to hit the 8 stacks cap? Is 1.6 APS that hard to get?\n\nAs for gladiator, idk what you’re talking about with “can’t use a shield”",
"replies": [
{
"body": "yeah spending 13 seconds to get 8 bleed stacks sounds so great while also not fishing for higher bleed hits.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "All I’m hearing is that the top end of crimson dance builds will be better. Attack speed gives diminishing returns, given the cap."
}
]
}
]
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "What attack speed was lost?",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Totems"
},
{
"body": "Rage only gives more attack damage now.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "That's a change though. It used to give increased attack damage. Now it's more. And it's vastly easier to get."
}
]
},
{
"body": "Totems + Rage"
}
]
},
{
"body": "Its big because its constant though, instead of having to buff and keep it up, its now always up. Theres a reason why dot feels better at lower dmg values, the same will be true for us now, more consitent dmg is big."
},
{
"body": "What attack speed lost? I'm still going through the patch notes"
}
]
},
{
"body": "I've never played Rage Vortex (or any real melee tbh) and I was considering doing something with the new Rage implementation. Do you guys think its comparative lack of buffs is offset by the Rage changes? I can always transition to boneshatter jugg if it doesn't work.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Pretty sure rage vortex got a lot worse with the change to war bringer. You lose 50% damage and an easy way to max rage.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "I'm still trying to figure out the calculus of it all, but its worth noting you can get a lot of Rage gain on the passive tree. My absolute jank that I'm setting up has +13 per hit if using Cleave of Rage, so with enough attack speed you can cap in 2-ish seconds."
}
]
},
{
"body": "It should be fine as long as you can keep your rage up - not improved though while most real melee has been. \n\nThough the fact that it only takes a few seconds to lose ALL rage now if you're no longer fighting might require some thought as to how you'll kickstart it.\n\nProbably its easiest use is supplemental to another melee skill that can ramp the initial rage for you and then you can let loose an exerted rage vortex and have both skills doing dps on single target.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Cleave of Rage, maybe? I wonder if a Berserker crit/bleed rage setup could work with Rigwald's Savagery and Rigwald's Command. That might spread things a bit thin though, don't know how I'd square that with defenses... and in particular losing the stun immunity on Rite of Ruin hurts.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "I feel like cleave of Rage just got a huge nerf. It scaled area via rage, and max rage just got tanked."
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "Comparing with +maximum rage from just the tree as a baseline before and after, it goes from 25% of 70 times 5% for 87.5% more to 25% of 52 times 10% for 130% more. Also notable is that the previous 70 required the +10 from the Berserker ascendancy while now you can get 52 on any class, though the rage benefits make Berserker probably the best choice anyways. Rage changes also give a lot more damage, and sustaining Rage on just passives seems like it should be easy. Main problem will be kickstarting your rage after losing it, but the damage seems like it should be good. Definitely going to look into it as a league starter, probably using both Rage Vortex and Cyclone (or another attack) to sustain dps from two attacks at once and have something that can clear packs and build up rage.\n\nEdit: With minor nodes, you can actually get to 60 max rage, as well as up to 13 rage per melee hit (though I'm not sure it's actually worth it to take everything)."
}
]
},
{
"body": "Oros flicker with 408% dmg eff, and I don't have to summon totems? Sign me up 🤑"
},
{
"body": "Its worth noting that LS actually only got a 5% buff if the numbers in the patch notes remain as is. It currently has a 225% multiplier at level 20.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Started LS raider last season in SSF and it worked surprisingly well. Hoping someone way smarter than me tells me if Warden and the patch notes make it better."
}
]
},
{
"body": "Does anyone know if the damage effectiveness buff on dominating blow applies to the minions or just you?"
},
{
"body": "would love to see some boneshatter of carnage builds",
"replies": [
{
"body": "I am planning on making one once PoB is updated to see the changes to it with a Pillar of the Caged God."
}
]
},
{
"body": "[deleted]",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Yea. Add the bears girdle for another 10-20 max rage as well. Bezerkers are gonna have so much power. Now the issue is any defenses on them lmao"
}
]
},
{
"body": "Is consecrated path league start viable now?",
"replies": [
{
"body": "It’s above average in terms of slam effectiveness right now. What makes or breaks its strength is the interaction with concentrated ground and warcrys. Chieftain or inquisitor seems like the play"
}
]
},
{
"body": "You missed that while Rage Vortex got a minor base effectiveness increase it got *doubled* Rage scaling.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Rage vortex of berserking did not get anything though, and that is the version of the gem anyone have been playing. This looks like a overall nerf to that gem."
},
{
"body": "You can't get as much max rage tho\n\nBear's Girdle lost 10 max rage, berserker lost some and default is 30 (down from 50)"
}
]
},
{
"body": "I think Lightning Strike of Arcing is ended up nerf"
},
{
"body": "I was hoping Wild Strike would get a more juicy buff."
},
{
"body": "I used to love reave, and reave of refraction could be interesting on warden. Hatred and taste of hate to guarantee cold damage always for thos hoarfrost stacks\nAlso the new quality granting more base phys for weapons and the buffed crit chance on claws makes me really wanna try it."
},
{
"body": "please update the Lightning Strike to new numbers \"Lightning Strike: No longer has Added Lightning Damage at all gem levels. It now has 198% Effectiveness of Base and Added Damage at gem level 1 (previously 135%), scaling up to 456% at gem level 20 (previously 225%). Now has a Mana cost of 6 at gem level 1, scaling up to 10 at gem level 20 (previously 6 at all gem levels\" this is copy paste from the patch notes",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Once I got access to my desktop in a bit I will. Happy for LS players they weren’t dumped on"
}
]
},
{
"body": "Plz edit lightning strike. They buffed it."
},
{
"body": "Lightning Strike has been updated since initial patch notes. now has a standard 2x multiplier to effectiveness from previous leagues."
},
{
"body": "Man, I have been playing lightning strike of arcing trickster for a couple leagues now. \n\nDid I just get a 2x buff lmao"
},
{
"body": "Sadly petilent strike cannot be saved from the dmg inc alone. The prolif aoe needs to increase too. The aoe doesnt increase from inc aoe gem or aoe from tree if i remember correctly so non PF builds are still gonna feel bad for clear.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Been planning to play PS PF for a long time now though, and always reverted to bow poison or tincture claws in Affli, so i'm really happy about this buff.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "I like both pestilent and viper atrike but i guess will have to wait for pob update to know more."
}
]
}
]
},
{
"body": "would love to see some boneshatter of carnage builds"
},
{
"body": "Why did they completly remove the Melee Totems? they could just remove the 20% More Attack Speed & Warchief's More Melee Damage!"
},
{
"body": "the massive thing being missed here is the loss of totems. yea, they weren't always up, but for any hit based build you are talking losing 50% of your maximum\n\nI am hyped for the patch, but it isn't a buff fest for melee.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "Gaining a lot of points on the tree, sockets, and 100% uptime on your damage is pretty massive as well."
},
{
"body": "On paper we lose damage, but we gain uptime from not having to resummon totems and not having to worry about having to throw totems where they wont die to mechanics or aoes, plus no longer needing to invest in Panopticon and/or buff lingering.",
"replies": [
{
"body": "I don't know why everyone is discounting this fact. It's going to feel way nicer during the majority of gameplay where you weren't summoning totems anyways. *And* the option is still there to add actions for a net power increase in the form of warcries and banners. Not to mention the defensive implications of the patch as a whole. I was prepared for the changes to not be enough to convince me to play melee, but that definitely isn't the case."
}
]
}
]
}
]
}